Sorry, Charlie! A Non-Buddhist Argument for Animal Liberation


(This article was originally published at Tricycle Magazine. Since a subscription is required, they graciously allow their authors to republish.)

By Glenn Wallis

A truth is ennobling only when it is lived.

Twenty years ago, my daughter, Mia, had a shattering revelation at the age of 4. We were watching one of those nature movies about sea life. Out of the blue, a school of tunas appeared. These were of the massive, bulky, ten-foot-long, 2,000-pound variety. Mia’s mouth dropped. She looked over at me with an expression of disgust. “Tuna is a fish?” she half asked, half exclaimed. 

Mia’s experience offers an entry into a hypothesis and an argument I will try to weave together. The hypothesis, “non-buddhism,” will help me formulate the difficult argument. The argument is that Buddhists should commit to advancing animal liberation, which necessarily entails an anti-speciesist or vegan stance. This is a difficult argument to make to Buddhists because Buddhism has struggled mightily with the issue for millennia and, as a result, has formulated many arguments against my contention. 

To say that Buddhism rejects animal liberation is, of course, only half of the story. For every prohibition the Buddha makes against, say, “strict vegetarianism,” in one text (typically from the Pali canon associated with Theravada Buddhism), we get an offsetting proclamation in another text (typically from the Mahayana canon) that “meat-eating I have not permitted to anyone, I do not permit, I will not permit.” Buddhism, taken as a whole, suggests too many variegated and often contradictory positions on the issue to offer us unambiguous guidance. Indeed, even the seemingly univocal lay precept “I undertake to observe the rule to abstain from taking life” and the bodhisattva pledge “sentient beings are numberless; I vow to save them” are, in actual practice, filled with loopholes.

My sense, derived from forty-some years of participation in American Buddhism, is that intra-Buddhist rumination about what counts as a sentient being, what role intention and motivation play in moral responsibility, the karmic repercussions of killing unawares, the argument from ultimate emptiness, and so on have contributed to the contemporary Buddhist culture of technicality around ethics generally, including the topic of animal liberation. Given Buddhism’s divided path on such a momentous topic—after all, the lives of trillions of beings are at stake annually—where do we go from here? Do we leave it as an intractable “personal choice” matter, or might Buddhism contain the goods unequivocally to clarify the issue?

The Tuna Heretic

To view the argument of advancing animal liberation—or any argument—through the lens of non-buddhism, you must take a heretical stance within Buddhism. 

A heretic is typically a devoted practitioner whom the authorities of their tradition deem dangerous. Think of the beloved Dominican prior Meister Eckhart (1260–1328), who was condemned for notions such as you are “the creator of the eternal word, and without you, God would not know what to do”; or the magnificent Sufi mystic Al-Hallaj (858–922), who was executed for proclaiming, in the grand nondualist tradition of ego-dissolution, “I am the truth.” As the fates of these two figures show, a heretic’s devotion invariably takes a form that appears wickedly mistaken to the status quo, so mistaken to warrant condemnation and even death. So why should you want to take such a position? Our two mystics already gave the short answer—namely, that you and not “God,” or indeed “Buddhism” or “the dharma,” abide at the heart of value, meaning, and truth. A heretic, in short, remains committed, albeit in a complicated way, to their tradition and, crucially, takes on the responsibility for transforming it. 

What made Mia’s revelation so shattering was that it rendered her a heretic. She had loved spooning tuna out of the can, spreading it on warm toast swathed in creamy mayonnaise. Yummy! Her image of tuna was formed by Madison Avenue. Some readers might recall Charlie the Tuna, the hip mascot of StarKist, with his thick Buddy Holly glasses and Beatnik red beret. Charlie’s pleas that his impeccable “good taste” made him a prime candidate for a can of StarKist were met with rejection: “Sorry, Charlie!” With cute cartoon Charlie’s benign assurance, Mia believed tuna was just some delicious flaky stuff in a can. And now “the Real” of the matter was starkly revealed: she was eating the mutilated flesh of a once majestic living being. She was eating a once-living, feeling animal whose exquisite head and tail had been chopped off, whose silver iridescent body had been gutted, boiled, fileted, minced, and stuffed into a tin can for human consumption. Not yummy. 

From that moment on, Mia was a tuna heretic. For, on the matter of eating it, she was now in a position—indeed, unavoidably compelled—to decide, or like the original meaning of the Greek word hairetikos, heretical: “to be able to choose; to be able to have a distinct opinion.” My argument is that with the aid of non-buddhism, you will similarly find yourself standing at the starkly forked pathway of animal suffering and liberation.

Why non-buddhism?

The original impetus for my conception of non-buddhism came from the work of the contemporary French thinker François Laruelle. He calls his work “non-philosophy” or, more recently, “non-standard philosophy.” I came across Laruelle over ten years ago while working on a critique of Buddhism. I wanted my critique to avoid being just another reformist corrective to Buddhism. So I set out to emulate, in one crucial manner at least, a rigorous scientific method: it must leave its object, Buddhism, just as it is.

No one practices Buddhism, only a variation of Buddhism.

Like a scientific investigation, my critique would not determine what postulates or assumptions properly constitute “Buddhism,” or the value, truth, or relevance of any of the claims made in the name of “Buddhism.” Instead, I would ask: how does “Buddhism” work? What does it do? Who is its subject, its ideal person?  How does it go about creating its subject in the real world? What does the proliferation of so many plural Buddhisms reveal about the principle singular formation, “Buddhism?” (My neologism, “x-buddhism,” is intended to index the relation of the many to the one. No one practices Buddhism, only a variation of Buddhism.) These were the questions driving my critique. 

Such an approach would open the possibility of speculative applications of Buddhist material. So the “non” is not a negation of or an anything-but Buddhism. It means “Buddhism,” but not under the “punctilious gaze” of the masters, as Laruelle puts it. The “non” indicates Buddhism mutated through certain operations. In short, non-buddhism does things with x-buddhist materials. My idea was that the speculations enabled by these operations would, in turn, ensure Buddhism’s vitality and relevance in the face of what I was increasingly coming to see as its diminished role at The Great Feast of Knowledge.

The Great Feast of Knowledge

So let’s begin here, where it all began, at The Great Feast of Knowledge. This is a non-buddhist trope intended to accomplish two related aims. First, it aims to provide a realistic picture of x-buddhism’s place in the larger world of thought and practice. Second, it aims to remove a significant hindrance to x-buddhism’s diminished place within that larger world, namely, the principle of sufficient Buddhism.

The trope of the Great Feast asks you to imagine a colossal medieval-type hall crammed with massive wooden rectangular tables, around which are sitting, standing, pacing, gesticulating, and arguing the motliest throng of human beings you can imagine. These are the representatives of Knowledge—philosophy, psychology, history, physics, biology, politics, literature, religion, law, and so on ad infinitum. The Feast is a place where x-buddhism’s ideas—its various concepts, beliefs, myths, truths, fantasies, hopes, and dreams—are subjected to the invigorating ordeal of being debated, contested, complicated, contradicted, refuted, maybe ridiculed, and maybe embraced by other traditions.  

A crucial feature of the Great Feast is a guard standing at the entrance. The guard’s task is to collect the weapons from the various authorities that seek access to the Feast. Anyone may enter but shorn of sword and insignia. So imagine “Buddhism” arriving, arrayed with its battery of dharmic concepts; its inexhaustible treasures illuminating the darkness of the world; its bodhisattva field marshals armed with seductively confident arguments; its Buddha, glowing with the sovereign nimbus of the thaumaturge. Stripped down, deprived of their authority, and bereft of their institutional robes, titles, lineages, publishing houses, and PhDs, the Buddhist agents enter the hall indistinguishable from everyone else. They take their seats amid the chaotic swarm. The Feast begins.

Biology comes over to Buddhism’s table. Is it true that you find desire a problem? 

The Buddha responds: I don’t envision even one other fetter—fettered by which beings wander and transmigrate for a long time—like the fetter of desire. 

Biology is dumbfounded. But we are animals driven by self-preservation. Desire (craving, thirst, attachmentis precisely the mechanism to ensure our biological reproduction. In what sense can it be considered a “fetter”? 

Philosophy overhears the conversation and chimes in: Buddhism, you seem to assume another world beyond this one. Can you offer us any proof for this quite incredible transcendental assumption?

Psychology’s ears perk up: You also seem to denigrate the human being, its very body full of craving, its mind full of dreams, its emotions full of loving attachments. Does Buddhism exist for the person or the person for Buddhism?  

The Principle of Sufficient Buddhism

What might physics, neuroscience, poetry, sports, or love say to Buddhism about the value of desire? The trope of the Great Feast of Knowledge asks you to subject your x-buddhist concepts, beliefs, and theories to the vast perspective opened by the world of ideas. How does your concept fare? A non-buddhist analysis predicts that one result will be particularly far-reaching. This result is the revocation of the principle of sufficient Buddhism. 

This principle holds that all things are “Buddhistizable,” to coin an ungainly but apt term. Buddhism possesses assumptions and concepts that may be applied to virtually any other domain of inquiry, thereby bringing that domain into Buddhism’s field of vision. From everyday issues like relationship troubles and job woes to problems with addiction and depression, to the nature of consciousness and quantum reality, Buddhism, the principle holds, can provide a sufficient explanation and solution. From the perspective of non-buddhism, the price that Buddhism must pay for this sufficiency is too high. As long as Buddhism remains regulated by this principle, it will remain unable to “think” beyond its self-reflection. It will thus be incapable of offering the rigorous account of reality that it purports to provide. Instead, it can only offer us a circularity in which Buddhism gazes into a matter only to see its image reflected back.

If the reader doubts the massive load-bearing function of the principle of sufficient Buddhism, ask yourself what happens once it is dismantled. On the negative side, Buddhism loses its preeminent status as an enlightened wisdom. For, in dialogue at the Feast, its assumptions, such as karma and rebirth, will rarely, if ever, prove incontrovertibly sufficient. Let’s focus on the positive side. Laruelle likens the move to that of non-Euclidean geometry. The decisive difference between Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometry concerns the behavior of a line. Euclid’s fifth postulate assumes parallelism. In upholding this postulate, along with the other four, Euclideans radically limit the field of possible forms. Rejecting this postulate, though preserving the other four, non-Euclidean geometry, by contrast, envisions radical new possibilities; namely, it permits elliptical and hyperbolic curvature. In removing a postulate that was not self-evident, non-Euclidean geometry can describe actual reality more accurately. Might removing the principle of sufficient Buddhism similarly enable us to envision radically new and eminently practical—and as such, more realistic and rigorous—possibilities for ourselves?

The Real

One matter above all occupies Buddhism’s specular gaze and needs to be discussed before presenting an argument for animal liberation. I mentioned earlier that the shattering aspect of Mia’s tuna revelation was that “the Real” burst through an otherwise benign moment. Her disturbing realization was that she was not eating happy little nuggets endorsed by an innocuous cartoon fish; she was eating the mutilated flesh of a brutally eviscerated animal. The idea of “the Real” allows us to talk about disavowed features of reality that threaten to undo our constructions of goodness, order, sense, and meaning. 

For instance, anthropomorphic cartoon mascots like Charlie the Tuna and the Chick-fil-A “Eat Mor Chikin” rebel cows enable us to hold at bay the Real of fifty-six billion horrifically tortured, maimed, mutilated, and slaughtered land and aquatic animals every year in the United States. Such disavowal allows us to maintain our sense of ourselves as good people committed to justice and anti-oppression. But when reality fractures and the Real breaks through, as in Mia’s case, what then?

The concept of the Real is taken most recently from Lacanian psychoanalysis, but it is an ancient element of thought about reality that spans philosophy (Plato’s forms, Kant’s a priori, for example), science (laws, forces, empirical realism), psychology (the unconscious), religion (God, the Absolute), even art (the sublime, the true and beautiful). Buddhism’s version is expressed in several similar “first names.” First names are those terms that I put in parentheses that symbolize the Real. Candidates for Buddhist first names are, for instance: no-self (anātman), emptiness (śūnyatā), dependent origination (pratītyasamutpāda), pain (dukkha), and the dharma. I emphasize that these names symbolize the Real because they can never adequately represent it, much less capture it. And this is where non-buddhism can help. 

Buddhism, like all other sufficient systems, believes that, through its concepts, it does capture the Real. When Buddhism adduces the existential priority of pain, it is confident that it is thinking the Real. That is, Buddhism identifies the Real of human pain as dukkha. By contrast, non-buddhism sees such a move not as a thinking of the Real of pain, but precisely as resistance to the Real of pain. How so? Just ask yourself whether a phenomenon as colossal, monstrous, or immense (no word is big enough) as “the existential priority of pain” can be adequately represented by a concept such as dukkha. Buddhism, in short, aims to teach us what there is and how it all hangs together. 

Discovering such a principle is a timeless human yearning if the history of ideas is any indication. It is the yearning to know, to embrace intimately, or even to be consumed by, that which is fundamentally real. It is a yearning born from the lived human experience that involvement with the things of this world—its objects, people, events—does not produce abiding pleasure and, indeed, is too often the very source of pain. 

Recognizing the problematic, often hallucinatory, role that such yearning plays in the ideological production of meaning, non-buddhism aims to suspend Buddhism’s claim over the Real. It does so by “foreclosing the Real.” The idea here is that the Real of human pain can never be adequately articulated in a given thought system, and so is ultimately foreclosed to that system. A related idea is that it is precisely the Real that nonetheless causes the ruminations on pain that we call Buddhism, and Buddhism itself encapsulates these ruminations as the quite particular idea it terms “dukkha.” So, in short, while x-buddhism thinks the breached, Real, non-buddhism thinks from the foreclosed Real. Readers would not be wrong to hear echoes of the Buddhist idea of “abandoning the raft” here. 

By revoking the principle of sufficient Buddhism, foreclosing the Real, and positioning ourselves as heretics, we can now fashion innovative usages of Buddhism.

Axiomatic Animal Liberation

We can fashion “more real” usages out of Buddhist materials (concepts, texts, practices, texts, etc.) because the strictly Buddhist sense of the material is suspended. It is important to note that we do so by interrupting, not revoking, the Buddhist usage. This move allows non-buddhism to create experimental axioms for itself of the nature, “If we assume that x…” It is from these axioms that we create new usages of Buddhism.

I can now state the non-buddhist argument for animal liberation. The argument holds that Buddhism and animal liberation are inseparable. Consequently, a Buddhist practitioner must actively eliminate the exploitation of nonhuman animals for any purpose, meaning committing to an anti-speciesist or vegan stance. At a minimum, this engagement must take the form of refraining from using animal products and includes veganism. 

I realize that nobody wants to hear such musts, but recall that non-buddhism aims to be inventive, experimental, speculative, and rigorous using axiomatized and abstracted Buddhist ideas. So let’s try it out. First, I will state three theorems. As you read them, please ask yourself what it would mean for a Buddhist to reject the theorem. Then, I will frame the argument using the four noble truths: pain as an innate characteristic of sentient existence; pain’s origin in craving (desire, thirst/hunger, want); craving’s interruption; the way to do it.

Three Non-Negotiable Theorems

Theorem 1The animals whose products you use and consume are sentient beings who perceive and feel pain. In 2012, “The Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness” was signed by “a prominent international group of cognitive neuroscientists, neuropharmacologists, neurophysiologists, neuroanatomists, and computational neuroscientists.” The declaration concludes that “humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness. Nonhuman animals, including all mammals and birds, and many other creatures, including octopuses, also possess these neurological substrates.” 

Theorem 2Every sentient being is an inalienable One indisputably deserving of dignity, freedom from exploitation, and protection from unnecessary pain. Being fellow sentient beings, nonhuman animals are not categorically distinct from Homo sapiens. The human-derived “animal” category permits the “othering” that invariably leads to exploitation, enslavement, cruelty, and death. 

Theorem 3Buddhism is a rare force for compassion in the world. Subtract its compassion imperative, and Buddhism’s value as an agent of betterment is fatally compromised. More than ever, the world needs the robust, unambiguous displays of compassion that Buddhist training can offer.   

Four Truths to Make You Noble

First ennobling truthPain is inevitable, but you can contribute to its diminishment. You actively participate in the animal-industrial complex when you use and consume animal products. Among the countless horrific actions of this complex that you will be disassociating from as a Buddhist animal liberationist, let’s look at pigs alone (figures from 2020). Crammed shoulder to shoulder in stifling hot trucks, deprived of food or water over distances that might take days, these highly intelligent animals experience terror, sadness, and despair to a degree inconceivable to most humans. Some 330,000 of them will die during this inhumane transport. The other 131,563,000 will arrive, terrified, at the slaughterhouse. There, it is not unlikely that the males will have their testicles ripped off without anesthesia. Piglets are sometimes killed by having their heads slammed against the ground. Eventually, all the “viable” pigs are stunned into unconsciousness. The most common methods of stunning are done with a penetrating captive bolt (a metal bolt is shot into the brain), gassing (typically with carbon dioxide), and electricity (an electrical current pierces the animal’s brain via tongs). After stunning, the hind legs of the still-living pig are tied, and the pig is lifted upside down while a slaughterhouse employee cuts its neck arteries, causing it to bleed to death. An emotionally animated, socially attuned, deeply feeling, loving pig went into the slaughterhouse. A ghastly human commodity called “pork” came out. 

Second ennobling truthCraving. The root cause of killings every ten hours equaling the “deadliest conflict in human history” (60 million during World War II) is our craving for animal flesh, eggs, milk, leather, etc.

Third ennobling truthCessation. That needless slaughter will cease with the cessation of our craving for animal products.

Fourth ennobling truthThe Way. Stop using and consuming animal products.

It’s as simple as that.

A truth is ennobling only when it is lived.

Regarding nonhuman-animal justice, English philosopher Jeremy Bentham famously said, “The question is not can they reason, but can they suffer?” Regarding Buddhists today, the question is not, “Can they reason their way out of this and other such anti-speciesist arguments,” but “Shouldn’t they do whatever they can to reduce suffering in the world?”

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For readers interested in further exploring the philosophical discussion around animal liberation, I recommend Zipporah Weisberg’s excellent article, “Animal Repression: Speciesism as Pathology.”

21 responses to “Sorry, Charlie! A Non-Buddhist Argument for Animal Liberation”

  1. Wtompepper Avatar

    What exactly is the concept behind the term “speciesist “? I’m asking this in all seriousness, because it does not seem to me to be possible to understand it as part of the group: racist/sexist/classist etc. To my uninformed mind, and I suspect to others, it sounds like mere virtue signaling. But I assume there is some concept here I am unable to grasp.

  2. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Hi Tom. Thanks for your comment. The OG animal rights philosopher Peter Singer defines speciesist as “A prejudice or attitude of bias in favor of the interests of one’s own species and against the interests of members of other species.” The abominable cruelties that humans perpetuate against the fully sentient non-human beings that we call “animals” requires the fabricated conceptual distinction that the term “speciesism” is meant to illuminate. Maybe you’d be interested in learning how the Frankfurt thinkers’ theory of repression relates to the human destruction of non-human animals. I recommend Zipporah Weisberg’s work. Maybe start here. I highly recommend her article “Animal Repression: Speciesism as Pathology.” I’ll embed it at the bottom of the “Sorry, Charlie” post.

  3. Wtompepper Avatar

    I completely agree with the goal here. The way we raise animals for food is horrifying. I would maintain, though, that if we hope to get to that goal we have to give up on the “speciesist” rhetoric. Singer’s definition just repeats the problem with most philosophical ethics: the assumption that we begin from a position of competing “interests” and the only “moral” thing to do is to renounce one’s own interest in favor of somebody else’s. Nothing can be considered “virtuous”, within this framework, unless it does not at all benefit the actor. This is, of course, an ethics that assumes the capitalist concept of the subject.

    Weisberg uses the same assumption when she suggests that “dualism” of animals and humans, or “human exceptionalism” are bad things. Because clearly her argument depends on such dualism and exceptionalism. The argument is that, unlike all other species on the planet, human’s are uniquely able to rise above their evolutionary programming. We don’t ask the tuna to stop eating other fish, or the wild pig to stop eating bird’s eggs and newborn fawns, etc. We know that it is natural for them to do this. When a chimpanzee steals a baby monkey from its mother and begins to eat it while it is still alive, we don’t accuse it of cruelty. But we assume humans, evolved to be omnivores, can now, because we have sufficient knowledge of nutrition and productive capacity, stop doing what it is our “nature” to do. We are the only species able to rise above our genetics and create the way we live.

    In short, I absolutely think the only way to get to the goal of “animal liberation” (another problematic term) is to embrace and insist on human exceptionalism and a dualism between our species and all others. In fact, your essay and Weisberg’s both assume this, while denouncing this very assumption as evil.

    At the same time, I wonder why it is so easy to get buddhists (x- or non-) enthusiastic about reducing the suffering of a toad or a fish, but so hard to get them interested in reducing human suffering. Perhaps it is because it seems so easy to “stop using and consuming animal products” but so difficult to “stop being capitalist”? But I’m not sure it would be so easy to feed the nearly nine billions humans on the planet if we all stopped eating animals immediately. Just as an example, we need to use about 120 gallons of water to produce a pound of milk, but about 500 to produce a pound of chick peas. This wouldn’t be a problem if we could reduce the human population to a level the earth can support…but that could take a century or more (and, I would argue, would require us to stop being capitalist…a mode of production that requires ever increasing population and the brutal oppression of the majority of all humans, as well as indifference to the destruction of other species). Americans easily ignore the problem of starvation that is very real in other parts of the world–If we all became vegan, you can be sure that the food shortages would not impact the northern hemisphere as much as the southern.

    Why are we so afraid to acknowledge the uniqueness of our own species?

  4. Eph (they/them) Avatar

    I made this response to your article Glenn on my instance of fediphilosophy.org yesterday.

    I didn’t respond here because honestly because while I don’t mind disagreement, but when it is contentious, we tend not to bother. But as some aspects have already been broached that are tangents of our perspective, I figured why not.

    “It’s a single-celled protein combined with synthetic aminos, vitamins, and minerals. Everything the body needs.”
    — Dozer, The Matrix

    While we share the spirit of Glenns theses in his article, we personally find Buddhism sentiocentric, thus short sighted (regardless of the flavor of Buddhism) and likewise the argument for veganism shortsighted as well. Our position extends beyond sentiocentric anti-speciesism.

    The common definition of speciesm (our connotation) is in regards to other creatures with central nervous systems that (we can be certain of) experience suffering. But even then, different anti-speciest vary where the line of adequate sentience is, and which animals (and other species) are exempt from the list. Nearly all (but there are exceptions like ourselves) do not include plants deserving compassion. Yet, sentient animals are only a fraction of the near infinity of species we are aware of. Thus, you are speciest if you eat sentient animals, but not speciest if you eat non-sentient species. This calls in the sad use and meaning of what it is to be speciest, as the definition itself is speciest. Do plants not experience suffering? As far as we can tell, they don’t, but is the assumption enough to take over plant species’ existences, their biology, their lives, genetics, reproduction, and be master of their life spans?

    For the moment, we are, as a species, still caught up in the Ouroboros of nature that dictates that which lives must consume that which lives or was once living. (Plants are exempt but even they themselves prefer organic matter–that which was once living–to inorganic matter) But with lab growing techniques of organic matter, including vital proteins, fats, carbohydrates, and “Everything the body needs”, one day, maybe no plant or animal, will need to be harvested, and butchered to satisfy the hunger nature imbued us with.

    #philosphy #Buddhism #specieism #AnimalLiberation #nature #ecology #food #Veganism #vegetarianism #sentiocentrism #Matrix #plants

    P.S. A while back we ran an impromptu poll on our instance regarding who, if they could, would forgo all the pleasures of consuming food. The response was minimal thus not with much weight, but the few that did respond, the edge went to those who would not give up consuming food as the pleasure of eating was too important to them. We/I, would give up consuming life or once living organisms if we could and await the slop that has “Everything the body needs.” We also use our own culinary and food science experience to create smoothies that attempt to minimize the harms of farming and agricultural food production that we brashly call “Save the world smoothies.”

    P.S.S. Despite the indirectness of our response, our argument in response is that arguing for elitist consumption (not meant to be emotionally charged, only descriptive) of only non-sentient species misses the real argument, that nature/evolution created us to in essence be ouroboros’ and can we indeed “rise above [or step out of] our evolution.” For us, this is the proper application of science and practice, seeing and aligning our natures towards compassion where nature ignored compassion in her design.

  5. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Thanks for your comment, Eph. When I go to the fediphilosophy.org URL I get an error message. Should I respond to your comment here?

  6. Eph (they/them) Avatar

    Fediphilosophy.org is an academic philosophy instance of Mastodon (Academic in the loosest sense of the word as while they ask for some sort of evidence of philosophy research, they are open borders. We simply shared our Zotero research library and were granted an instance). Typing in fediphilosophy.org should take you to a log in page. Your article here has a link to share in Mastodon, the first time we noticed that capability, which we greatly appreciate and the first time we availed ourselves of the privilege.

    That said, we are good with having continued dialogue here as well.

  7. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    [Made some edits for clarity.] Thanks for your comment, Tom. I’ll have to respond briefly for now. I’ll see if I can provide some links that flesh things out more than I have time for at the moment. Here goes:

    I’m sure you understand that veganist arguments are not about the way that non-human animals are raised for food. It’s about the very fact that they are raised for food.

    In analyzing the subject positions that we create in our world doesn’t it makes sense to hold “the assumption that we begin from a position of competing ‘interests’”? In considering injustices, I don’t see any problem with that starting point. Maybe you can say more. To the point that “the only ‘moral’ thing to do is to renounce one’s own interest in favor of somebody else’s:” (1) I have zero interest in morality. (2) Consuming animal products is precisely not in the interest of humans. Meat of every kind is god-awful for our bodies. Worse even, animal consumption is a leading cause of the environmental catastrophe. So, humans are doing something for rather than against their interests when they refrain from animal consumption. Also, neither Zipporah’s nor my argument assumes “the capitalist concept of the subject.” The subject concept in play is the “human” categorization that Adorno and Horkheimer, in The Dialectic of Enlightenment, argue stems from the destructive instrumental reasoning that defines the Enlightenment worldview. Again, the concept of speciesism helps to counter the Enlightenment classification system that we have all so deeply integrated into our own worldview. Yes, maybe an incipient “capitalist subject” is already folded into that system; but that’s another matter.

    Re paragraph two. Humans are not omnivores. “Based on anatomy, humans are raw food herbivores. We evolved to eat raw plant foods.” My argument, and Zipporah’s too, I think, holds that it is not a question of whether the “’dualism’ of animals and humans, or ‘human exceptionalism’ are bad things.” Rather, the question is (i) to what end this “dualism” was created in the first place, and (ii) what we have created out this arbitrary dualism. Other than that, the paragraph sounds like a vegan wrote it!

    I don’t understand para three. I don’t think that the belief in human exceptionalism (in the Christian-influenced sense of the term) is “evil;” I think it’s absurd. And on the basis of that absurdity, we do monstrous things to non-human animals.

    The entire reason I published this piece in Tricycle is that it is precisely not “so easy to get buddhists (x- or non-) enthusiastic about reducing the suffering of a toad or a fish.” I know maybe three vegans who also identify as serious Buddhists. Buddhists have close to zero interest in vegan and animal liberation arguments. About the other points you raise, please have a look at this video. Let me know what you think of Ed’s arguments around the points you raise!

    Re: “Why are we so afraid to acknowledge the uniqueness of our own species?” Every “species” is unique. It was in fact perceived differences that contributed to Enlightenment classification in the first place. So, how is uniqueness unique to “our own species”? Further, wherein lies the uniqueness that you a referring to? Certainly not in sentience.

    I am curious — when you say “I completely agree with the goal here,” does that mean that you are vegan?

  8. Wtompepper Avatar

    Briefly, I thought I made it clear what I meant by human uniqueness. Your argument is that humans, and only humans among all species, can be held to a standard: it is forbidden to eat other animals. This is a kind of dualism or exceptionalism, that you both insist we all accept and insist we all deny the truth of. I think the vegan project would be more convincing if you admitted your own assumption of human uniqueness. We certainly won’t be rounding up the lions and foxes and sharks and forcing a soybean diet on them, right?

    As for the claim that we evolved to eat raw plants…well, that just doesn’t seem plausible to me. There is too much evidence that we need animal products to function normally–it is almost impossible to get sufficient choline (just as an example) from raw plants, but easy enough to get it from meat or eggs. Only now, with our advanced scientific knowledge (which only humans have on this planet) are we able to realize that we can be deficient in choline, and produce a supplement for it, because, still it is very difficult to get it in our diet–nobody could eat that many soybeans every day! Unfortunately, despite the vegan rhetoric, meat is not only NOT horrible for our bodies, but until recent scientific advances was necessary to our survival.

    I don’t really feel up to attempting a brief explanation of how the concept of competing interests is a capitalist theory of the subject. But I will say that on Singer’s definition, we would have to accuse every species on the planet of the sin of speciesism. We can’t though, because only humans can be held to that ethical standard.

    Sorry, I shouldn’t have bothered attempting serious discussion on a blog.

  9. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Yes, blog discussions around consequential matters do get very tedious real fast. And yet…

    I do not “both insist we all accept and insist we all deny the truth of” human exceptionalism (in the sense you are suggesting it). I only insist that we accept it! Tom, if you come away with one point from this discussion please let it be that vegan arguments absolutely want all humans to accept the “assumption of human uniqueness” in the sense that you define it. So, it’s just the opposite of what you seem to think. To be clear: we humans are exceptional in that we have choices where other animals have necessity.

    You assert that “There is too much evidence that we need animal products to function normally.” Can you point me to some sources? Please make sure the sources are scientific and neutral. I find nutritionist societies trustworthy in this regard. For instance, the American Dietetic Association says: “appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, and for athletes.” If you want to become better informed about the human need for animal products maybe you will be open to taking a look around their journal.

    The “concept of competing interests” is also part of the “capitalist theory of the subject” but it does not only or necessarily entail a capitalist subject. Evidence of concepts of competing interests is as old as writing itself!

    I am still curious — when you say “I completely agree with the goal here,” does that mean that you are vegan?

  10. Philip Murphy Avatar
    Philip Murphy

    It bears mentioning that the other animals that humans exploit as resources are conscious (Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness, 2012) and as such are members of the moral community. Per Glenn having referenced the position paper of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, it bears repeating that human beings have no need to consume animal “food” products in order to maintain health.

    The term ‘speciesism” simply refers to the indefensibility, on the part of human beings, of exploiting a sentient being based on the morally inconsequential trait of species membership.

    As is routinely the case with speciesist apologists, Tom’s attempt to defend gratuitous violence rests on fallacies including strawman, so-called red herring, appeal to tradition, appeal to futility, and concludes with a thought-terminating cliche. All of which is soaked in a tone of dismissiveness and condescension — which is of course a tell-tale sign of an incoherent argument.

    Noting the repeated refusal on Tom’s part, to answer Glenn’s simple question as to whether he (Tom) is vegan — yes, cognitive dissonance is a bitch. Here’s a gold-standard vegan guide: https://goveganworld.com/download-your-free-vegan-guide/. And please do consider me to be a resource as well. The alternative is to participate in what is, in scope, scale, and duration, the worst atrocity on the face of the earth. Now make the obvious choice, Tom.

  11. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Hi Eph Thank you for your comment. Fo me, the crucial question at the heart of my article is not one that centers on the definition of “speciesist.” I wrote that piece for a Western Buddhist audience. In a sense, it is an immanent critique, namely, an approach that (i) argues from Buddhism’s very own propositions, (ii) identifies contradictions, refusals, flinchings, failures of realization, etc., within the system itself as evidenced by its practitioners, and (iii) makes proposals that flow from usages of the Buddhist material that are arguably in better faith than the actual current Buddhist usages.

    Regarding your P.S.S: The accusation that veganism is “elitist” sounds like a version of the appeal to tradition fallacy. Or did you mean something different?

  12. Eph (they/them) Avatar

    Hi Glenn, thank you for engaging. Your article and our engagement with it has crystalized many floating thoughts we’ve been contemplating over the years. Our response to your questions has created a document over 1600 words and will later become an article probably without the buddhist influences, but for now can be found here: https://write.as/gnoselph/dialogue-with-non-buddhists-regarding-animal-liberation-anti-speciesism-and . It really is still a rough draft. Undoubtedly if we engage further it will change.

    The TL;DR is:

    Anti-speciesism is ill defined, misleading, biased towards only species deemed to be sentient, and implies and fosters exploitation and death of species not deemed sentient. Anti-speciesism is better described and more truthfully by its synonym, sentiocentrism as anti-speciesism (historically) only has compassion for animals deemed sentient.

    Our belief is that all species are living beings and deserve respect, dignity, and compassion. We embrace anti-speciesism in its broadest and fullest sense.

    Regarding Glenn’s article, we argue that any internal criticism of x-buddhism’s position regarding veganism and animal liberation must first contend with the different and ambiguous understanding of what x-Buddhism means when it uses the term sentient beings (jantu, bahu jana, jagat, sattva).

    We contend that any sort of absolutisms regarding veganism, anti-speciesism, and animal liberation within x-buddhism, while desirable, is impossible, and the best one can attain (at our current technological capabilities) is the harm reduction model.

    Because we assert that absolute cessation of harm, exploitation, and use of species for survival is impossible, and x-buddhism’s ambiguous ethical position regarding who or even what is covered by the term sentient being, any immanent critique of x-Buddhism via the lens of non-buddhism, that attempts to set in concrete ethical precepts regarding animal liberation and anti-speciesism, and supports veganism by such precepts, while it is in the right spirit, is still a product of ideologies of anthropomorphism and its more inclusive, but still elitists offspring, sentiocentrism.

    Glenn’s critique is an improvement on the illogic of x-buddhist beliefs on such subjects only by degree and his prescriptions are ultimately impossible not only in practice but cannot ameliorate the psychological repression and guilt of the existential reality nature has burdened all life, what we call the ouroboros Real, where life must consume life or that which was once living to survive and thrive.

  13. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Thanks for you comment, Eph. In your first two paragraphs of your summation are you suggesting something like panpsychism? I think you’re right that vegan philosophy is sentiocentric. What would “compassion” toward non-sentient species of, say, plants, look like? I understand the ethics of care here (i.e., deserving of respect and dignity, as you say), but that seems to me different from compassion toward sentient beings.

    Regarding the relevant implications of the x-buddhist concepts of jantu, etc., can you recommend an article. If there is none, that’s prestty incredible, and maybe you can write it up?

    Yes, even the staunchest animal liberationist and the most committed vegan agrees with you that “absolute cessation of harm” is impossible. We aim to practice our convictions to the greatest extent possible. Be careful not to slip into the appeal to futility fallacy. Also, I do not see how the second part of your assertion in that para relates to the first part (“Because we assert”).

    I’m afraid I don’t understand the final paragraph. I’ll have a look over at the URL you provided. Thanks!

  14. Eph (they/them) Avatar

    Hi Glenn, I’m not referring to panpsychism in the first two paragraphs of TL:DR section. We actually do mention it in the blog article. We’ve been a-panpsychism as long as we have been atheist but recently, within the past year, due to current scientific discussions suggesting a form of panpsychism, we have begun to research and follow the discussion, and finding prominent scientists and philosophers position and theories (the SEP’s entries regarding panpsychism especially Bertrand Russell’s theory was influential), it would be accurate to say we are now agnostic of panpsychism, albeit, more critical than optimistic (due to lack of experience produced via mindful investigation). What I mention in the longer article is that “if” it turns out there is some form of ubiquitous primal/proto-consciousness that is latent within all energy/particles, within the building blocks/particles of all that exists, dukkha may also be more ubiquitous than imagined. Just speculation of course but being sensitive to harming and being harmed, for us it is something we are mindful about.

    Regarding compassion, if you are questioning concerning empathy, we do mention the issue in the blog article and acknowledge that empathy for creatures that mimic our emotions, creatures typically defined as sentient, is easier and more natural (for many at least). If we were to take this up officially, we’d probably argue for a kind of deontological position. In that one one can choose to “extend” reasoned qualities, caring, freedoms, rights, and autonomy, etc. (i.e. comprehensive compassion if you will…LOL) to all living beings even if only from an objective/abstract means. But yeah, in as far as if we insist that compassion can only be from something naturally felt, then breaching the threshold of having for compassion for all living things is probably impossible at this point of our evolution.

    Regarding jantu, etc., again, a reference is included in the blog article where I site Wikipedia’s entry on Sentient beings (Buddhism), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentient_beings_(Buddhism), which cites Daniel Getz entry in the Encyclopedia of Buddhism on sentient beings, where Getz cites:
    -Gethin, Rupert. The Foundations of Buddhism. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1998.
    -Matsunaga, Daigan, and Matsunaga, Alicia. The Buddhist Concept of Hell. New York: Philosophical Library, 1972.
    -Sadakata, Akira, et al. Buddhist Cosmology: Philosophy and Origins, tr. Gaynor Sekimori. Boston: Charles E. Tuttle, 1997.

    Yeah, that penultimate paragraph is convoluted, sorry. Regarding absolute cessation, my position is more semantical, like with anti-speciesism. In our minds, cessation implies a sense of finite, or the ability or potential to stop absolutely. Thus we prefer working with the concepts and goals of the harm reduction model. The futility you pick up I think may be, we think, more of a reality of an impossible moral dilemma. Rather than the idea that because cessation is impossible anything goes, it more like where one is being forced to choose who to kill between two loved ones, two children. We don’t just say it’s impossible to choose, kill them both. Rather we are victims of reality, nature, evolution. We must consume other organic life to live and if we have a deep and resounding compassion, love, for all things, how do we make the impossible choice? We, ourselves, try to practice harm reduction, always seeking ways, never perfect, never absolute, to diminish harm to other living beings, and sit with the repression of guilt and shame knowing we’d do differently if it were possible.

    The final paragraph is in reflection of your article and Weisberg’s article you added. It is imbued with a lot of subtexts of our personal lens of the Real. Our lens is our growing theory that we are right now calling (at the moment) existential evolutionary psychoanalysis. It may be a bit clearer if you get around to reading the blog post. It is quite involved, and from a decidedly non-humanist POV, while still remaining compassionately human. Thanks again Glenn for the dialogue.

  15. philip4abc596f8f Avatar
    philip4abc596f8f

    Following on Glenn’s comments I will reiterate his point re: appeal to futility fallacy, which is in fact the organizing principle of “gnoselph’s” reactive, and fundamentally obscurant attempt at a counter-argument. This includes the proffered bloviations, in the form of an external blog post.

    In their comments they strawman the argument for anti-speciesism (veganism) with this fallacious argument when in fact the most widely accepted definition of veganism, in its referring to a refraining from exploiting (other) animals “as far as is possible and practicable,” acknowledges the impossibility of perfect non-harming in the material world while retaining the commitment to an anti-exploitation stance. Yes, harm reduction, as opposed to a perfect non-harming, is a characteristic of existing in samsara; however this fact does not refute the vegan imperative, but rather affirms it. (I won’t waste my or anyone else’s time in sifting through their baseless charges of elitism, their hijacking of buddhist concepts including the centrality of compassion (!), and their vomiting up of variations on the tedious “circle of life,” “plants, tho” canards used as an attempt to buttress their violence-accommodationist “position.”) There is of course much more that could be said, but I’ll leave it there. Such ridiculous attempts at a justification of gratuitous violence that are attributable to culture speciesism (raga, moha) are so widespread that it necessitates that I manage my time and associated efforts accordingly.

    “gnoselph” closes his response to Glenn by offering “[t]hanks… for the dialogue” a phrase that functions as a thought-terminating cliche. Of course this attempt at evasion changes the attendant calculus not at all. Maha-karuna.

  16. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Hi Eph. As I say in the piece, I really do believe “It’s as simple as that.” I don’t know what more there is to say than the following:

    A truth is ennobling only when it is lived.

    Regarding nonhuman-animal justice, English philosopher Jeremy Bentham famously said, “The question is not can they reason, but can they suffer?” Regarding Buddhists today, the question is not, “Can they reason their way out of this and other such anti-speciesist arguments,” but “Shouldn’t they do whatever they can to reduce suffering in the world?”

  17. Eph (they/them) Avatar

    Bentham was enlightened for his time, but Bentham’s philosophy is sentiocentric. It is important to understand we are not judging anyone, unlike many ethical veganists. So, when we label a philosophy or immanent critique as sentiocentric, it is simply to contribute to discourse which in time can become relevant. It does not come from a place of contention or ill will, regardless of how it is received. They are not judgments on our part (we are all guilty, we are all monsters). That said, we do learn from reception and strive to hone our skills of contributing from other’s reactions and advice. Your suggestions in the realm of logistical argumentation have been heard and we will try to learn more about the fallacies and implement (prevent) them into our discourse. We still have no clue how to deal with other people’s appeal to emotion and hyperbole. We both empathize and sympathize with them, such positions of emotional defensiveness we recognize does come from a heartfelt place, a place we share, even if maybe more tempered in ourselves through the objective lens and space of mindfulness. We were not always so mindful. Being old also helps…LOL.

    Regarding your ending last two quotes in your last response, while we are practitioners and advocates of mindfulness, and are interested in Buddhism, we are not Buddhists, so it is hard to contribute to a normative that would/should umbrella all x-Buddhism. Anyways, ethically we are anti-realist and see no need for normatives. Of course, that is easier said than done, and we are not averse to using the jargon of ethics at times, hopefully we remember to clarify.

    I wish we could agree on the way as being simple, yours or ours, but for us at least, it is anything but and involves constantly weighing and discerning how we can “do whatever they can to reduce suffering in the world.” That said, the foundational philosophical manifesto for living our ennobling truths can be found at Anarchism of the Heart, The First Truth of Anarchy, https://heartanarchism.substack.com/p/the-first-truth-of-anarchy . It is brief(ish) and bulleted, less than a minute read, 2 at tops. It hasn’t been edited since 2022, but we think there are a few edits we might make now.

    #anarchism #evolution #genetics #anarchy #fear #compassion #tolerance #monsters #sentiocentrism #veganism #anti-speciesism #truth

  18. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Oh, well. I guess Tom Pepper is not going to get back to us on the “too much evidence that we need animal products to function normally”? It’s a good conversation, even though, or maybe precisely because, he is so misinformed and wrongheaded on the issue. I’ve never known Pepper to back away from a disagreement. It would be great if he or someone else could refashion his argument without those elementary logical fallacies that Philip mentions. Also, I am still curious — when he says “I completely agree with the goal here,” that means he must be vegan, right? Would it not be crass hypocrisy otherwise?

  19. jgbis Avatar
    jgbis

    So, I’ve been keeping this thread in mind, and since it doesn’t seem to be dead, I might as well at last respond. Even though it is a blog.

    My first and lasting reaction to the essay has been puzzlement. Despite the increased prominence of vegetarianism, actual numbers haven’t shifted over the last ten years (https://news.gallup.com/poll/238328/snapshot-few-americans-vegetarian-vegan.aspx). Close to half the people who try Veganuary don’t make it through the month (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1264396/intention-to-remain-vegan-after-veganuary/). But based on the non-random sample of people I happen to know, being an x-buddhist appears to make it more likely not only that someone will become a vegetarian, but even manage to stay that way.

    I could say more, for example about the ritual vegetarianism of every retreat I’ve ever been to, or my sense that vegan commitments wouldn’t make someone a heretic in any sangha I’ve known. I’m just left puzzled about why choose this topic to announce to the world the advent of non-buddhism?

    ‘We should axiomatically jump out of our current set of worldviews/assumptions/ideologies/isms+practices/infrastructues/food systems through the anti-speciesist alternative of repurposed buddhist materials!’ There are a lot of ways of arguing for veganism; Glenn, this is the one I see you taking. Here’s the problem: I think your own arguments show that you yourself haven’t completed the jump into heresy. In defending a purportedly anti-speciesist version of human exceptionalism, you finally wrote: “we humans are exceptional in that we have choices where other animals have necessity.” That, however, is a pretty precise re-statement of the Cartesian idea that humans have the ability to reason and choose while animals are mechanisms that respond by reflex. And of course that Cartesian idea is one of the main bases for contemporary ideologies of human superiority, for sciences that separate humans from nature, etc. etc. In other words, the full catastrophe.

    Glenn, if even you can’t give voice to a consistently anti-speciesist ideology, maybe it’s unrealistic to impose sudden enlightenment on others? That doesn’t mean that your conclusion is wrong–like Tom Pepper, I agree with the “goal”–so in a friendly fashion I’d like to see it argued for in a non-incoherent fashion.

    If we can’t just jump out of the catastrophe, what is to be done? Let me tell a counter-story, an event that happened the same week as the original post. In the course of a general discussion, a young person confessed with pain that they wanted to be vegan, but could not.

    I know this person to be deeply committed to completely re-visioning the relationship between humans and other animals; possibly as a child they made the jump to see tuna as fish. But now they are an adult.

    They could be a vegan, but it would require extraordinary efforts. Much of their life would be consumed with getting themselves fed. They’d have to give up on many of the other things they want to do, not only ordinary pleasures but all the other activities in pursuit of the needed complete re-visioning. They’d achieve personal purity at the cost of any hope of collective efficacy.

    I propose we take as a goal to make it possible–easy–not even worthy of remark–for this young person to do what they desperately want to do, and what we know is the right thing to do. That requires collective efforts to reflect on our current situation, and build new ideologies (etc) and new infrastructures (etc). Personally, I think buddhist materials can help in this effort. But we can’t jump there.

    Next up: hypocrisy. I’m not responding on Tom’s behalf; I am confident that he gave what he considered to be exactly the response the replies to his posts deserved. But I’m assuming that I’ll be next in line, since I confess to being a buddhist, I am supportive of veganism, and I sometimes eat animals and often eat milk products and eggs.

    Since I’m a being that has emerged within the way things are now, I know I’m an imbecile (bonpu). So maybe being a hypocrite would be a step up, since I’d be “paying a compliment to virtue,” as the old saying goes; I’d at least be pretending the right values. Unfortunately, in my case, honesty (another one of those precepts) wins out over maintaining self-esteem and social reputation: I am not going to pretend to any virtue. I am not even a hypocrite.

    4 1/2. Aside: Since I am a being that has emerged within the way things are now, I’m influenced by those I rub up against–by my network. So I’m grateful to all the folks at INCITE who have shown that it is possible to be a better person. Y’all have had a leading role among the “causes and conditions” that have led to whatever inadequate changes I have been able to make. Gashho!

    Finally, on to fallacies. In a quick instantiation of the Great Feast, here’s what I would say to my students.

    We’ve had close to 50 years of serious thinking about fallacies, and it turns out that the way the term gets tossed around on social media doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. It’s proven very hard to develop precise conceptions of specific fallacies, and utterances labelled “fallacious” are mostly not logically invalid, but more just arguments that in some circumstances can be weak or incomplete–and in other circumstances, not problematic at all. This has led some to propose giving up on the idea of fallacies entirely. But if you still want to claim that someone else has committed a fallacy, here’s how to do it.

    First, make an argument that what the other person said in fact constitutes an instance of the fallacy. This requires laying out the criteria for the fallacy in question and interpreting the utterance to show that it fits the conception.

    Second, make an argument about the effect that the commission of the fallacy has on the person’s argument. How much or little force does the fallacious argument have in this specific context? Does removing the fallacy do significant damage to the person’s overall case? These questions need to be addressed with good reasoning.

    In short, an arguer can’t just declare some utterance to be a fallacy and walk away, dusting their hands. A fallacy claim has to be supported by arguments.

    This leads to a final, pragmatic point. An arguer who makes a fallacy claim has opened a new set of potential issues–they have expanded the “disagreement space.” Others can come back with counter-arguments, like “no, that isn’t what a such-and-such fallacy is,” or “you misinterpreted what I said,” or “in this case, the supposed fallacy is actually a solid argument.” Very often discussion of these new issues does not advance thinking about the original disagreement.

    So I suppose the question is: do we want to talk about fallacies, or do we want to talk about buddhism and veganism?

  20. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Thanks for engaging, jgibs! Dialogue form:

    Vegetarianism. I don’t understand the relevance of vegetarianism to the topic.

    I’m just left puzzled about why choose this topic to announce to the world the advent of non-buddhism? That was my assignment from the Tricycle editors, namely, to make a non-buddhist argument for animal liberation and to provide a brief intro into non-buddhism.

    That, however, is a pretty precise re-statement of the Cartesian idea that humans have the ability to reason and choose while animals are mechanisms that respond by reflex. Can’t we speak of digestive possibilities and limitations of various species without going as far as claiming that they “are mechanisms that respond by reflex”? A tiger can be an intelligent information-gathering-and-responding animal and yet have a physiological necessity to eat certain other animals, or not?

    Exceptionalism. I only used that language in respond to the commenters own language. Normally, I’d speak of “human exceptionalism” in the Christian-derived/Humanist sense. Also, if it were true that there exists “too much evidence that we need animal products to function normally,” the animal liberation argument would have to be drastically reframed.

    unrealistic to impose sudden enlightenment on others? Sudden enlightenment, yes; sudden cessation from participating–to the greatest extent possible–in the mass murder of billions of sentient beings a year, no!

    If we can’t just jump out of the catastrophe, what is to be done? See “Fourth Ennobling Truth”!

    a young person confessed with pain that they wanted to be vegan, but could not. The vegan line is to limit engagement in all forms of animal exploitation “as far as is possible and practicable.” Only each individual can determine where that limit is.

    But we can’t jump there. I am a “suddenist” in this regard. Jump in with both feet!

    Hypocrisy. I don’t quite follow you here. I guess I’m a bonpu, too!

    A fallacy claim has to be supported by arguments. Agreed.

    So I suppose the question is: do we want to talk about fallacies, or do we want to talk about buddhism and veganism? Maybe this will sound insincere, but I really don’t want to talk about fallacies, veganism or buddhism. In the case of the present post, I wanted to craft an argument that cuts to the core issues in order to be done with the very issue. The section “Axiomatic Animal Liberation” tries to do that.

    Thanks so much for your comment! Good stuff. And thank you especially for the intelligent and open-minded manner in which you present your arguments.

  21. Philip Murphy Avatar
    Philip Murphy

    Responding to @jgibs: simply stated, your comment is based on on the category error of mistaking a consistent oppression social justice stance that recognizes all sentient beings as members of the moral community, with a human diet. The error reduces your attempt at a counter-argument to the status of sound and fury, signifying nothing (of moral coherency.) Consider, now, your statement, rephrased and uttered by me, to you: “I confess to being a buddhist, I am supportive of feminism, and I sometimes rape and murder women and often participate in their enslavement that includes rape and serial pregnancy followed by the forcible separation of mother and child, the subjugation of children and ultimately the murder of all described parties, occurring at a fraction of their normal lifespan.”

    If you contend that “it’s different for humans,” or something to that effect, I’ll then ask: what is true of an animal — what is the trait — that if true of a human would justify visiting violence unto death upon the human, in a non-survival scenario?

    I recommend Sandra Higgins’ excellent presentation, “What Other Animals Need from Us.” Her vegan guide is equally excellent. 

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