Pragmatic Dharma and Unexamined “Ends”

Pragmatic Dharma and Unexamined “Ends”

By Chaim Wigder

I began writing this post as a direct response to the content that made up Daniel Ingram’s recent double (by now triple) appearance on Matthew O’Connell’s The Imperfect Buddha podcast. In the process of writing this, however, I was made aware of a series of posts entitled “Critique of Pragmatic Dharma,” which appeared on the blog parlêtre. These posts—which make up what I believe to be the most decisive critique of the pragmatic dharma movement to date—have led to Daniel’s somewhat neurotic, several-thousand-word-long response being published as well. I have tried to incorporate Daniel’s response here, although the thrust of my thoughts are mainly focused on the recent interviews, combined with vent up frustration at the pragmatic dharma movement in general, as well as, well… having consumed perhaps too much Marxist philosophy recently. I hope that there is something here worth engaging with.


In listening to Daniel Ingram’s most recent set of conversations with Matthew O’Connell on the latter’s podcast The Imperfect Buddha, I have been made aware once again of what I see as the dangers of Daniel’s so-called “pragmatic dharma” ideology, of which he is perhaps among the most well-known spokespeople. I want to, therefore, offer a brief response in critique of this ideology, particularly as it is presented by Daniel in these interviews, but also more broadly.

Interestingly, I don’t listen to Buddhist or “spiritual” podcasts much anymore, as I find them both tedious and nauseating. However, I’ve found The Imperfect Buddha to be one which remains listenable, as its host, Matthew, is generally thoughtful and critical—even, dare I say, self-critical, much of the time. I noticed that Matthew did attempt somewhat to challenge Daniel on many points, in fact bringing up many of the criticisms which one might find at Speculative Non-Buddhism. I did, however, think that Matthew did not push Daniel as much as I know he could have, and perhaps even wanted to. I therefore want to take the time to reiterate some of the criticisms which were raised, pushing them further, as well as responding to some of Ingram’s responses to them. I must say that Daniel’s performance in these interviews struck me as displaying a disturbing level of intellectual immaturity and spiritual narcissism. I really do not think—pace Daniel’s insistence to the contrary—that he has sufficiently engaged intellectually in these critiques to really grasp them. As such I do not expect him to grasp my expansion thereof. Still, I hope that others who find themselves gripped by the pragmatic dharma sales pitch might find this exercise useful.

I want to take a brief detour before beginning, to first address what appears to be a large objection leveled by Daniel against criticisms of pragmatic dharma. In his response to parlêtre, Daniel takes great pains to display his frustration at what he perceives to be a tendency of critics to unify, against the better wishes of its proponents, the ideology of pragmatic dharma which is, in fact, according to him, varied and broad. Daniel writes, for example:

If you had started, “I get that Pragmatic Dharma as a loosely defined movement is a broad movement that truly wishes to transcend its own limits, whatever those might be, to truly get to the dream of what works for the reader and practitioner, using whatever concepts, means, techniques, methods, social interactions, practices, and other resources to achieve those ends, and, in this, fundamentally represents a spirit of broad encouragement and empowerment,” then we would have started off on a similar footing, but we didn’t. We started with PD being largely reduced to Noting but totally ignoring the many carefully stated frames put in place in an elaborate and detailed attempt to explicitly deal with many of the problems you yourself raise, and so forgive me feeling what I am feeling as I try to help this conversation crawl out of that unfortunate pit.

I think this particular framing of the response is telling. Aside from the detail fetishism, which, in Daniel’s defense, may well often be invoked in an attempt to actually avoid acknowledging important details, there is another strategy at work here which I find to be sneaky and tiring. I certainly understand the frustration of having a broadly defined movement be addressed under narrowly defined parameters. Such approaches can often seem unhelpful, as when a conservative pundit laments anything that could be in any way placed within the general category of “Marxism,” or “postmodernism,” without attending to the very real differences and nuances in the vast body of works which fall under these (often contradictory) terms. However, I think the case of pragmatic dharma is different, and this difference lies in the ways Daniel himself would fancy to categorize the movement.

The problem is this: If you define a movement loosely enough, and broadly enough, it becomes so indefinable as to be meaningless. What does it mean for a movement to be a “broad movement that truly wishes to transcend its own limits, whatever those might be, to truly get to the dream of what works for the reader and practitioner, using whatever concepts, means, techniques, methods, social interactions, practices, and other resources to achieve those ends”? Defined in this way, pragmatic dharma ends up meaning nothing at all. It means this, or it means that, depending on the specific person engaging in specific practices under specific circumstances. “Pragmatic” here ends up being synonymous simply with some kind of limitless relativism, in which anything goes in terms of concepts, theories, and techniques, as long as they serve to “achieve” the unquestioned “ends” which pragmatic dharma dogmatically prescribes: namely, personal well-being. As such, pragmatic dharma becomes functionally invincible to criticism. Whatever criticism one wages, can easily be met with “well that’s not what everyone means by pragmatic dharma!” or an insistence that the criticism fails to stay on topic. But this kind of critique has already been well-established on this very blog. I’m tired of having to repeat it.

How tiring, indeed. In the interest of avoiding this completely tone deaf complaint raised in response to parlêtre, I think that what would be useful is to question the one thing that is common among all “versions” of pragmatic dharma, and indeed, among all x-buddhism: namely, the unquestioned “end” toward which the infinite relativism of “concepts, means, techniques, methods, social interactions, practices, and other resources” are to be employed. Again, to be explicit, this “end” is pretty much invariably some form of an ability to passively accept whatever “sensate experience” arises, under the assumption that there are circumstances under which investigating the social reality of such experiences would be of little or no use. My criticism here, then, will be twofold. First, I want to question the desirability of this “end.” Second, I want to argue why an investigation of the social will always be more important that a solipictic investigation of “sensate experience.” Let us begin, then, with a postulate.

Postulate: Any critique of x-buddhism must be ideological.

One limitation of parlêtre’s critique, I think, is that it is not an ideological critique. We have to be clear about what I mean here. I do not mean that parlêtre’s critique is free of ideology. There is no such thing. What I mean is that parlêtre is combating ideology with ideology; namely, combating x-buddhist ideology with psychoanalytic ideology. This will likely come off as a personal attack, because all ideological criticisms provoke hostility, as, I think, the history of speculative non-buddhism surely demonstrates.

Rather than a personal attack, however, this criticism is meant simply to do what I am stating I want it to: to expose the presence of ideology where it is not conscious, and to come to some social understanding, through dialogue, of the function of our ideologies. The same is true of my much harsher critique of x-buddhism in general, and pragmatic dharma in particular, that I want to discuss here. This is, in fact, the case for all dialogue that is capable of leading anywhere. As such, dialogue must be a mutual undertaking. 

Dialogue must be mutual, and it must be based on shared intentions. Let me be open and state my intention here—which is to say, in part, let me state my ideology. My intention is to locate the real causes of suffering for the vast majority of human beings, and figure out the mechanisms by which these causes can be eradicated. Now, what’s yours?

Postulate: An ideological critique of x-buddhism must be rooted in the material basis of ideology.

X-buddhists like Ingram will respond that they share this intention of mine. The problem, however, is that we are at a fundamental impasse when it comes to the question of what those causes are. X-buddhists think that these causes are in the last instance determined by the mind. This makes them idealists. On the other hand, I believe that such causes are rather, in the last instance, to be discovered in material social relations, i.e. in ideological practices, which are always rooted in the forces and relations of production, which is to say, in economics (I am not referring to the academic field of study, which is also an ideology; I am referring to material economic practices—the transformation of nature into material necessities and commodities used to serve humans). This makes me a materialist.

The above is a non-negotiable postulate, as far as I’m concerned. There is no “Middle Way,” no postmodern consideration of all ideas, none of Pragmatism’s never-ending quest to reproduce capitalist ideology. If you think that the proximate cause of human suffering, by which I mean its determination in the last instance, is some thing called “the mind,” then you are an idealist, and we cannot engage in a productive dialogue.

A preliminary attempt at an ideological critique of x-buddhism. Case study #1: Daniel Ingram and Pragmatic Dharma

With that in mind, I want to first attempt an ideological critique of the repression of self that is the goal of x-buddhism in general, and pragmatic dharma in particular. I am including Ingram here, because what he describes is no different from this. Ingram will say that I just cannot understand what he means, because I haven’t “experienced” arhatship. Make no mistake, and see this sophistry for what it is: is it anything more than a plain, open, declaration, of a commitment to the very thing that Ingram would deny? Let me try to make this point clearer.

In the way that pragmatic dharmatists describe it, the repression of self sounds to me like a repression of ideology. In both cases of repression, however, these things are still there, they are just not accessible. This is, I think, the point that parlêtre was partly attempting to make, but from a psychoanalytic perspective. I would add that “arhatship” is the worst possible kind of subjectivity, because it is a completely passive acceptance of the relations of production, a complete inability to denaturalize the dominant social formation (i.e. everything “arises/happens naturally,” to use Ingram’s and x-buddhism’s favorite zombified trope).

Let’s be clear again. This is not a complete inability to act or engage in ideology; arhats will even insist on as much, and it is the one thing they are absolutely right about. Passive acceptance does not mean an inability to act and make conscious decisions. However, it does mean that those decisions will be made without any real agency, without any awareness of one’s ideology. This is where the sophistry comes in: an arhat will insist that she still experiences emotions, that she can still think and make decisions. But, crucially, if you actually listen to what she says, you will notice that what she is saying is that in such a state she is completely incapable of acting with agency, which I am defining as being aware of one’s ideology, and being able to understand their material functions within our social formation, so as to decide whether they are worth participating in. Emotions, thoughts, even “sensate experience,” are inseparable from social formations, because they always have functions which are materially intertwined with production, and with classes. X-buddhists often display an apparent ability to understand this, and yet, if this is the case, then it would be absolutely absurd to desire a state in which you are not constantly aware of the enormous amount of suffering that your daily life is implicated in.

A preliminary critique of the “pleasant states” (jhanas, “stages,” “paths,” etc.) fetish found in Pragmatic Dharma

This leads us to the cultivation of pleasant states more broadly, which is the same form of passivity formation. This fetish is present in all of x-buddhism, but it is especially characteristic of pragmatic dharma (just spend five minutes on the Dharma Overground forums). I want to argue that any focus on the cultivation of “positive” states is the highest ideological crime. It is to fail to recognize that bad states can also be cultivated, and that they can be done so entirely unconsciously. Crucially, these bad states are cultivated while their associated actions are as well (remember the primacy of material/economic forces, which means that any mind “state” is causally with the material world, including the relations of production).

But isn’t it good if some people find that x-buddhism makes life more tolerable? No. I do not give a flying fuck about the wellbeing of your upper middle class x-buddhist… as such. I care about such people’s suffering, but I care about it as much as I care about the suffering of all sentient beings. Therefore, I will not agree to abet in the wellbeing of a minority of the population (i.e. upper middle class x-buddhists) at the expense of the majority of the population (i.e. the kinds of people who cannot meditate themselves into bliss, because they either spend all their time selling their labor to meet their basic (biological) needs, or they are so crippled by capitalism that they cannot function as human beings). By engaging in the kinds of practices that x-buddhists engage in—and I am using the term x-buddhism here in Glenn Wallis’ original sense, to refer to subjects who are interpellated into any ideology whose x shares the unitary identity of all Buddhisms—by engaging in such practices they are necessarily reproducing the dominant mode and relations of production. These practices produce a subject who does not ever need to truly question them. 

In other words, these “states” and “skills”—the “ends” toward which pragmatists want us to employ their “techniques”—so sought after by x-buddhists are ideological ones, and they are completely unconscious. Because it is “easier” for them to engage in harmful ideological practices without suffering through it, they will never want to question those practices. And I mean suffering fully, not in Ingram’s sense of “kind of,” “sort of” suffering, but not really, because while suffering does arise—okay, at least he admits this—it arises in a different weird and interesting way which makes it more tolerable. No, this is not what I mean. I mean suffering in the sense that every victim of the civil war in Congo, which is fueled by our fucking Tweets, suffers. The way a single mother whose child dies because she cannot afford medicine due to the capitalist healthcare “system” suffers. And so on.

From this brief examination of pleasant states—or for that matter any reduction of suffering that is not brought about by material, social engagement with the world and with other humans, but rather only by individual practice and a focus on immediate experience—from this examination we can add one final postulate.

Postulate: There is no way to truly act in accordance with the bodhisattva vows, to act with agency to address the real causes of suffering, unless one is committed to talking only about the material forces of suffering, which are determinant, in the last instance, of the realm of ideology and of “the mind.”


Chaim Wigder blogs at The Failed Buddhist

References

The Imperfect Buddha Podcast. 53. IBP: Daniel Ingram on the Practicing Life

The Imperfect Buddha Podcast. 54. IBP: Daniel Ingram Meets Trash Theory

The Imperfect Buddha Podcast. 55. IBP: Daniel Ingram Down the Rabbit Hole

parlêtre. Critique of Pragmatic Dharma #1

parlêtre. Critique of Pragmatic Dharma #2

parlêtre. Critique of Pragmatic Dharma #3

parlêtre. Daniel Ingram’s Response

Dharma Overground Forums

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148 responses to “Pragmatic Dharma and Unexamined “Ends””

  1. geovock Avatar
    geovock

    Yea isn’t that just like a bourgee x-Buddhist to value, “individual practice and a focus on immediate experience,” above all else. To wit: “Through the sustained practice that presupposes the above meditation, the practitioner is radically reoriented towards what the Buddha calls ‘one’s proper range.’ This is the field within which according to the Buddha human life is properly lived. The proper range is the scope given by immediate experience. The point may seem obvious, but a central contention of Buddhism is that we are constantly wandering outside of that range, and into the improper, detrimental range of storytelling, fantasy, fabrication, personal narrative, and metaphysical conjecture. Throughout the canonical texts, the Buddha holds that to be careless towards, or inattentive to, immediate experience is to be as good as dead. Immediate experience is not only our proper range; it is, if we are honest about the manner in which our lives unfold moment by moment, our only range – immediate experience is all there is. [Glenn Wallis (2008) The Buddha counsels a theist: A reading of the Tevijjasutta (Dīghanikāya 13), Religion, 38:1, 54-67, DOI: 10.1016/j.religion.2007.09.001]

  2. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    geovock: Yes, what x-buddhists call “the improper, detrimental range of storytelling, fantasy, fabrication, personal narrative, and metaphysical conjecture,” I call ideological awareness and critique. The x-buddhist will have you believe that, say, a victim in the Congo, or a mother whose child is dying due to our capitalist healthcare system, are engaging in “personal narratives” when expressing the injustices which they face. Or that analyses of ideology is synonymous with something called “intellectualizing,” or “metaphysical speculation.” My point is that, pace pragmatic dharmatists and the rest of x-buddhism, these things are necessary, they are not the actual cause of suffering, and an engagement with these things is the only possible way to truly address human suffering, not meditating or using individualist “techniques.”

  3. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    geovock. This is actually an interesting point. First, you do realize that I am translating and interpreting a Pali text there, right? In that text, the Buddha is trying to disabuse two theists of their fixation on the absent, transcendental, non-existent vortex of human desire named “God.” One of his strategies is to point them back toward what Laruelle would call “the lived.” In this text, the Buddha is concerned to have his interlocutors realize for themselves the error of following this theistic orientation. So, he’s satisfied when they admit that what they had been referring to as “divine knowledge” is, on honest examination, a reflexively held belief (i.e., ideology, in the present post). For Laruelle, given his appreciation of Marxism, the lived or “immediate experience” instantly becomes entangled with, hence indistinguishable from, the immanent social vortex. The problem for many people thinking about Buddhism today is that the notion of “immediate experience” for the Buddha of the Pali canon, as well as in contemporary x-buddhism, not only ignores the social but proceeds as if the social doesn’t even exist. This is exactly one of the key points of Wigder’s essay, right?

    Having said that, we could perform some operations on the “four frames” referred to in the text you cited and create a category of the social. Doing so, would require doing things not permitted in philological work. Imitating Laruelle (with tongue slightly in cheek because I really am not this self-important) in order to disabuse future commenters of making the assumptions that you, apparently, have made (?), here’s a breakdown. (“The Buddha counsels a theist” is transitional from phase I to phase II):

    Buddhism I. This involved philologically oriented academic work. I concentrated on Sanskrit and Tibetan sources. My focus was on various aspects of medieval Indian Buddhist literature related primarily to ritual. My first book and earliest articles reflect these interests.

    Buddhism II. In my second phase, I studied and translated from the ancient Indian Buddhist canon as preserved in the middle Indic language known as Pali. I was particularly interested in the liberal humanist “cultural translation” project of enabling the “wisdom” of Buddhism to speak to twenty-first century westerners. My next three books reflect this approach.

    Buddhism III. I expanded on that interest to include the interface between ancient Buddhist literature and practice and modern psychology. These expanded interests were reflected in my teaching position at that time, which combined the training of professionals (psychologists, physicians, social workers, educators, and so on) in meditation practice and theory along with continued scholarly research.

    Buddhism IV. I abandoned the philological, liberal humanist, and applied meditation projects. My interest was, however, a result of working in those sympathetic modes. I was interested in developing a critical model for understanding the identity of Buddhism, particularly in its current western presentation, as something like a critique subsumed within an ideology subsumed within a faith. My contribution to Cruel Theory/Sublime Practice reflects this phase.

    Buddhism V. In this phase, I am interested (i) in creating texts, communities, and practices that embody the non-buddhist/anarchist spirit, and (ii) in encouraging other thinkers to employ non-buddhist ideas toward their own ends, interests, desires, and talents. A Critique of Western Buddhism, Incite Seminars, and Trash Community are examples of this phase.

  4. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Why buy into mind/body dualism? This seems very un-non 🙂 Why would immaterial things be less important. The processes that are maintaining structures in place seem more appropriate points of leverage. Certainly someone in a very poor economic situation has to prioritise that issue, but it might be the subject formed in a distant country that is more important for changing the situation. For example https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00963402.2019.1629576 “But our survey also showed that a large hawkish minority lurks within the US public; over a third of respondents approve of a US preventive strike across scenarios. For many of these hawks, support for an attack, even in a preventive war, does not significantly decrease when the story says that the United States would use nuclear weapons that are expected to kill 1 million North Korean civilians.” these are dangerous ideas that could impact us all materially.

  5. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Mark: I’m sorry, but I really am unable to understand your comment. Where in this piece are you picking up on a mind/body dualism? I am claiming that there is a difference between the notion that suffering is caused “by the mind” (and thereby focusing only on one’s own conscious experience), and the notion that suffering is determined, in the last instance, by material reality (and that thus, to truly address suffering, we must act on the material world). There is no mind/body dualism here. I am not making an ontological claim here. My point is, as well, that what you think of as “immaterial things,” (i.e., the mind, ideologies), are not immaterial, but are the products of material social relations and social practices.

    Can you please explain what you are attempting to get across with the study you linked to? I don’t understand the point you are trying to make.

  6. Mitro Avatar
    Mitro

    How is this different to any other transitions or mutations of Buddhism as it crossed cultures and continents and mixed with local societies, belief systems and thought structures? Is non-buddhism itself an x-buddhism? Instead, or maybe in addition to the Hindu, Daoist, Shintoist, Bon etc mixers we are now adding our own unique tonic of western philosophical tradition to create a different tasting manifestation of the same cocktail. Does this truly sit outside this process of human meaning making? I am not sure it does. At the risk of being derisive I will say that colonial intellectualism comes to mind. If an alien culture were to occupy earth and say ‘hey I like what this is about but we think that our telepathic non discursive phenomenal based understanding and communication is superior and therefore we are are going to run non-buddhism through our filters to make non-non – buddhism’ that is just another form of buddhism. We would all probably be inclined to say a bossy one at that as we lay on floating plinths staring at shadows under bright lights with probes in every orifice. Or let’s say Glenn’s Buddhism V with it’s anarchist and possibly hedonistic qualities depending on who takes the non-buddhists bull by the horns completely collapses and negates this essence of buddhism then why even associate it with buddhism? Is it nostalgia of our past practices or anger towards a framework we didn’ t quite agree with? Talk about requiring psychoanalysis. Why do we cling to this if we are so hell bent on modifying it intellectually to our own ‘ends, interests, desires, talents’? This just like the Satanists who decide to invert crosses to make a point. Surely a little more creativity could be employed. This is really no different to western cultural and societal values and ideologies anyway so this new-old label kind of becomes redundant. What is the mandate here and if there is one it could it arguably be said that practices that don’t have one are still a step ahead. Unless ofcourse the mandate of non-buddhism is not to have one in which case it becomes the slightly demented and sociopathic sibling on Zen. A koan for the post-traditional age. Or is it?

  7. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Close: It becomes the perverted sibling of Zen. The writhing offspring of a Deluzean x-buddhist ass-fuck. A koan for a real life.

  8. Mitro Avatar
    Mitro

    Well that certainly brings the conceptual shit-stick into the spotlight.

  9. geovock Avatar
    geovock

    Glenn – Hopefully when Failed Buddhist accedes to the will of the proletariat and becomes party chairman/supreme leader I imagine he’ll take into account your Wallis phase l-V explication here, (reminiscent of Wilber phase l-whatever?) and refrain from sending you for re-education – along with all the other soon to be ex-x-Buddhists he’s had rounded up – to one of the private prisons that’s been nationalized and appropriately converted Laruellian style to a non-prison for that purpose. Or alternatively maybe because you’re, “not that self-important,” e.g. unlike that “neurotic” Daniel Ingram fellow, he’ll just give you a pass.

  10. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    geovock: Your last comment was very funny; I actually laughed out loud. Well done. Do you actually have a point to make, though, other than the humor (which, again, I really did enjoy)?

    I am hoping to find people who are willing to have substantive discussions about how we might go about reducing the suffering caused by our social formations. Are you interested in having such a discussion? I often find that most people—especially x-buddhists—claim to be enthusiastic about such a project, and then the moment such a discussion becomes challenging, or stops playing by x-buddhism’s and civil society’s “right speech” rules, people shut down and retreat. Can you please be explicit about what your intentions are, and what your ideology is, so that I don’t have to waste my time?

  11. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Failed Buddhist: There is an assumption of mind/body dualism in the Postulate that “the mind” is not part of ideology, whereas “the mind” is part of an ideology (e.g. both x-Buddhism and the author’s perspective). The dualism of mind and not-mind is assumed by the author in several instances during the piece.

  12. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Failed Buddhist, regarding the link: the “minds” of about 30% of USA citizens are supportive of preventive nuclear strikes against fabricated threats like North Korea. If that number reaches 50% and you have a President up for re-election then the material consequences… Marx assumes mind/body dualism and then adds a “decision” regarding the centrality of production, the theory has not been very beneficial to society in the hands of true believers. I see a contradiction in trying to solve postmodern problems with ideology that predates postmodernity, we could also look back to religious doctrines as having the answers (oh wait, the x-Buddhists are already doing that).

    Also this idea of “tell me what you ideology is” in your later post seems strange, if you could do that you would be using some other ideology to frame the story about what your ideology is. For example “I am a Marxist” is assuming the “I”. The ideology that is really interesting requires someone else telling you what it is, at which point you will be adopting some new paradigm to see the previous paradigm.

  13. sourfoot Avatar
    sourfoot

    So, my interpretation of what you are saying is that there are two types of suffering in the world. There is real, “true”, suffering, the suffering that happens to the proletariat, and then there is suffering-lite, the suffering that upper middle class x-buddhists experience. And the reason that the working class suffering is proper suffering, is that it is due to being determined by social relations. Is that about right?

    One note. Pragmatic Dharma follows the Theravadan tradition. You assumptions appear to be Mahayanan – i.e. the Bodhisattva vow to liberate all sentient beings. So I have to say you come across to me as very sectarian – you bodhisattva’s slagging off those lesser vehicle arhats. As it always has been in the history of Buddhism…

  14. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Comrade geovock. Yes, fingers crossed. In the meantime, do you have anything to say that is on topic?

  15. parletre Avatar

    Bringing my question over from Twitter, which was: what do you mean by ‘in the last instance’ ? I recall from my relatively brief study of Marx, aided by some quick internet research, that society is seen to be determined by a number of factors, chief of which is the economic (“the base”) and which includes the mode of production. Althusser seems to be arguing that the base and the superstructure are interdependent or overdetermined, to borrow a psychoanalytic notion. At the same time, he seems to be arguing that all structures can be reduced to the economic “in the last instance” because value as capital is only possible because of the “surplus value” provided by labor.

    My understanding may be limited here, but I don’t find this convincing. I’m not clear why the economic should be seen as more real than, say, the mind. (I’m not arguing that the mind is more real than the economic.)

    Thoughts?

  16. geovock Avatar
    geovock

    Failed Buddhist and Glenn – I don’t think belonging to a community of trashy x-Marxists, “committed to talking only about the material forces of suffering,” as FB puts it, does any more or less to relieve suffering than belonging to an x-Buddhist sangha of navel gazers, unless such belonging is enabling of direct personal action within the larger community without expectation of reward either in this world or the next, e.g. working in a food pantry or soup kitchen or in a adult/child literacy project or as a hospice volunteer, etc, etc, etc. Call me cynical but in consideration of the history of collective human action/organization up to the present, no straight thing ever has been or ever will be made. Regardless, thank you for your engagement.

  17. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Mark: Again, I am unable to understand your comment. Are you saying that making any statement at all is falling into “mind/body dualism?” This kind of sophistry is exactly what I am trying to avoid, this notion that everything is equally just a “paradigm” or whatever. No, there is such a thing as truth, and we can access it. That does not mean that we can be free of ideology, or that our access to truth will not be in some way informed or facilitated by ideology. Your assertion that we are just hopelessly stuck in “paradigms,” as thus cannot ever access the truth, is just postmodern relativist nonsense.

    You say that Marx’s theory of production has not been helpful to the world. I’m not sure what you mean. What has been helpful to the world? Capitalism? Just because others have failed to address suffering in the world does not mean that we must throw up our hands and consider ourselves forever stuck in “paradigms.” We have to use the what knowledge we have, regardless of when that knowledge was founded. That is how history works: we build on the knowledge and the ideological foundations of those before us, so that we can, hopefully create new forms of them. That is the entire point of this blog.

    I disagree that we cannot be aware of our ideologies. I do agree that in order to do so productively, to learn how to create new ideologies, requires mutual dialogue. This is precisely what I am trying to argue. But it is not worth getting caught up in this notion of “paradigms all the way down.” This is just false.

  18. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    sourfoot: I cannot tell if you are being facetious, or if you are really failing in reading comprehension. I will act in good faith and assume that the latter is the case. Let me clarify. I am not creating a duality between the “real” suffering of the working class and the “fake” suffering of the upper class. It is true that the upper class suffers for different reasons that the working class. But this is not due to a difference in “perspective;” it is due to a difference in material circumstances. My entire point is that suffering, regardless of its location, is determined materially. When a rich person “suffers” because their ten-million-dollar Audi gets scratched, they are really suffering. That suffering, moreover, is determined by material causes. In order to investigate it, we would need to look at the larger social nexus that this person is in. Why are they engaged in the ideological practice of valuing a nice paint job more than the environment? What about our current social formation produces subjects who are so obsessed with the aesthetics of their means of transportation, that a disruption of it is more distressing to someone than the millions of homeless people in her city? This is what I mean.

    For x-buddhists, suffering—be it the working class’ or the rich’s—is primarily, if not entirely, conceptualized as being in the mind. The goal of the x-buddhist, in the case of the Audi, would be to “train the mind” of the person so that she can stop suffering over such a thing, and just learn to “accept” whatever “sensate experience” arises. This is what I want to avoid. I want people to, instead of suppressing their very real psychological responses to their harmful ideological practices, to investigate precisely what those practices are, to understand how they produce suffering in oneself and in others, and to be able to determine whether such a practice is worth participating in.

    One final point: I don’t care about traditions. I am not a Mahayanist, and so my issue with pragmatic dharma has nothing to do with sectarianism. Do you understand what non-buddhism? This is the spirit in which I am employing such terms as “bodhisattva.” I don’t think Mahayanist are any better than Theravadins, or vice versa. They are equally complicit in reproducing oppressive social formations.

  19. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    geovock:

    I agree: simply belonging to a community is not enough. We must actually be able to act on the world. The purpose of the exercise of the kind I am attempting to engage in here is to investigate the material social causes of suffering. For example, to investigate why we must accept a world in which millions of people must rely on underfunded and understaffed soup kitchens in order to survive, why we cannot conceive of a social formation in which everyone’s needs are able to be met in the first place. The position that all we have to do is work within the social formation that we have now is the position of the reactionary. I want to argue that addressing suffering in material ways does not have to be set in opposition to volunteering or some such practice. Practices that do not operate from the profit motive that dominates nearly all practices now are crucial. At the same time, we must understand these practices as well within the larger social formation, and ask whether the system can be transformed, so that the problems which we are attempting to solve can actually be solved.

    As with Mark above, your “consideration of the history” is doing no more than servicing reactionary ideologies. I hope that you can see this. This same ideology is found everywhere today: “We must not try to actually transform our social formation. Look at how trying to address the root causes of suffering have turned out in the past! Surely it would we foolish to attempt such a project ever again!” This is an absolutely absurd position to hold, and I hope that you can overcome it.

  20. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    FB: Are you saying that making any statement at all is falling into “mind/body dualism?”
    Mark: No, there are other alternative ideologies/philosophies that transcend this conception of reality

    FB: No, there is such a thing as truth, and we can access it. That does not mean that we can be free of ideology, or that our access to truth will not be in some way informed or facilitated by ideology. Your assertion that we are just hopelessly stuck in “paradigms,” as thus cannot ever access the truth, is just postmodern relativist nonsense.
    Mark: Your understanding of postmodernism is incoherent if you think it leads to relativism, that is a strawman argument. There are foundational philosophies (what you want), anti-foundational philosophies (the type you are afraid of) and non-foundational philosophies (what interests me and SNB I think)

    FB: You say that Marx’s theory of production has not been helpful to the world. I’m not sure what you mean.
    Mark: I was mainly thinking of communist disasters during the 20th century

    FB: What has been helpful to the world? Capitalism?
    Mark: I think it is obvious that is not working out

    FB: Just because others have failed to address suffering in the world does not mean that we must throw up our hands and consider ourselves forever stuck in “paradigms.” We have to use the what knowledge we have, regardless of when that knowledge was founded.
    Mark: One approach would be to bury our heads in the sand, hold on to foundational philosophies and hope that the next “system” or “truth” is going to save us. I have move on from that hope.

    FB: That is how history works: we build on the knowledge and the ideological foundations of those before us, so that we can, hopefully create new forms of them. That is the entire point of this blog.
    Mark: Not at all. Read Kuhn and the concept of paradigm shifts

    FB: I disagree that we cannot be aware of our ideologies. I do agree that in order to do so productively, to learn how to create new ideologies, requires mutual dialogue. This is precisely what I am trying to argue. But it is not worth getting caught up in this notion of “paradigms all the way down.” This is just false.
    Mark: “This is just false” is not a very convincing argument.

    SNB is based on Laruelle’s non-philosophy, which we could throw into the “continental philosophy” bucket. He is “building” on paradigm shifts that were introduced by thinkers like Deleuze and Derrida. By wanting to have your “truth” and “objective” view of your paradigm you are ignoring some of the most important paradigms in contemporary philosophy.

    I have been where you are arguing from. It is not a big deal as long as you don’t get stuck there. If you want to defend where you are at then the dialog can’t go on. It would be like someone trying to argue you back into the x-Buddhist fold.

    Here is a model you might like: the dark night in meditation practise is something like nihilism/relativism in philosophy. There is something on the “other side” of the chasm that is worth the risk.

  21. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    FB I see you lumped me in with geovock. You wrote:

    This same ideology is found everywhere today: “We must not try to actually transform our social formation. Look at how trying to address the root causes of suffering have turned out in the past! Surely it would we foolish to attempt such a project ever again!” This is an absolutely absurd position to hold, and I hope that you can overcome it.

    The point that SNB and other non-foundational approaches are trying to make is that it is you who has missed the point so far. You are projecting your own inability to get beyond what seems like unsurpassable problems regarding relativism and nihilism. Rather than imagining you have discovered the truth, try to imagine people who no longer need the sort of foundational truths you do (and you risk to waste a great deal of time discovering and becoming disenchanted with your current set of truths).

    My desire is to act in the world to “improve” the situation, but I actually want to be effective at that, not sit on a moral high ground. The SNB project does have this pragmatic turn toward practise, which I believe is inevitable once you “get” non-foundational approaches, it will also take a political turn if a group of people can keep exploring the territory (and I do mean political action, not political theory). But it will not be a resurrection of Marxism, that I am sure of.

    We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein

  22. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Mark:

    “Your understanding of postmodernism is incoherent if you think it leads to relativism, that is a strawman argument. There are foundational philosophies (what you want), anti-foundational philosophies (the type you are afraid of) and non-foundational philosophies (what interests me and SNB I think)”

    I am not seeking a foundational philosophy. I am seeking people who are interested in changing our social formation. You have, so far, failed to point out where exactly my foundationalism is. Is it in my usage of Marxist theory? Making use of the truth, and of explanations of our social formation, is not a “foundational philosophy.” I am still not seeing why you would think this.

    “I was mainly thinking of communist disasters during the 20th century”

    What does this have to do with Marx, as such? Marx conceived of a way to understand society historically, rather than philosophically. This is what I am interested in. I don’t know what your point is about “the communist disasters during the 20th century,” (which country succeeded in implementing communism, by the way?). Again, just because attempts to change the world have failed in the past, does not mean we cannot ever attempt to do so again.

    “Not at all. Read Kuhn and the concept of paradigm shifts”

    Yes, good. I have read Khun. Can you expand on how you think Khun’s work invalidates my point about having to work with ideological and historical material that exist now? Paradigm shifts can only happen when our paradigm becomes incongruent with reality, and it becomes impossible not to notice it. This is only possible because there is such a thing as truth. Please expand on this point, as I am interested in getting what you’re trying to say here.

    “One approach would be to bury our heads in the sand, hold on to foundational philosophies and hope that the next “system” or “truth” is going to save us. I have move on from that hope.”

    You are misunderstanding how I am using the word “truth.” I do not mean truth in any “foundational” or essentialist way. I mean that there are particular truths and facts that are important to understand, that are not part of any “paradigm.” I do not believe that any foundational “truth” or “system” will “save” us. The only thing that can “save” us is by acting on the material world, by changing our ideological practices.

    ““This is just false” is not a very convincing argument.”

    I’m not sure how I can make the argument to you that truth exists, and that the world is not some Hegelian idealism wherein we can only access “paradigms.” If you think that there are only paradigms, and that there is no way to know any truth, then we are operating on fundamentally different assumptions, and this is not something I know how to overcome. Maybe you have some ideas on the matter.

    “By wanting to have your “truth” and “objective” view of your paradigm you are ignoring some of the most important paradigms in contemporary philosophy.”

    What are these important paradigms? Do they deny the truth? If so, then I am not interested.

    “Here is a model you might like: the dark night in meditation practise is something like nihilism/relativism in philosophy. There is something on the “other side” of the chasm that is worth the risk.”

    What does this statement mean? Am I in a dark night? I don’t think nihilism is synonymous with relativism, and I am certainly not advocating for relativism. You are the one talking about paradigms all the way down, and how we can never access truth. Can you explain this, please?

  23. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    FB: I am not seeking a foundational philosophy
    Mark: Right, you’ve found it but maybe you can’t express what it is.

    FB: Again, just because attempts to change the world have failed in the past, does not mean we cannot ever attempt to do so again.
    Mark: I can’t be clear enough that I’m interested in making useful changes, not repeating mistakes. You seem to project that if I disagree with you then I must not want to change anything – I guess because you have the truth about how this all works, so I must be the opposite of you.

    Mark: If you have read Kuhn, then it is unlikely I can help you understand this in a comment. I do think you’ve missed one of the most significant points – that “reality” changes when paradigms shift. You are imagining a fixed stable (i.e. foundational) reality, that idea is philosophically dead by the end of the 19th century.

    FB: The only thing that can “save” us is by acting on the material world, by changing our ideological practices.
    Mark: I just don’t buy that type of division, neither does Laruelle. Obviously what you call “material” is very important, but it is also problematic (in my opinion) to conceive of it in the way you are.

    Mark: No I do not think “there are only paradigms”

    FB: Do they deny the truth? If so, then I am not interested.
    Mark: They have a different conception of truth, you seem to be attached to “modern” conceptions of truth. I think that paradigm has worked itself out, neoliberalism has won and we need new paradigms to address the problems. Luckily there are new paradigms, like non-philosophy, unluckily it is hard work to use them. But I still have some hope.

    FB: You are the one talking about paradigms all the way down, and how we can never access truth.
    Mark: I have not said that. Paradigms are not the be all and end all. But you would conceive of my position as “paradigms all the way down” because you assume there has to be a foundation. The “aha” will come if you keep working at it, but I don’t think I can inspire that in a comments section.

    Mark: I would be keen to continue the discussion on your blog (I replied to your post on social constructionism), if you are willing to put in the effort. It might be more useful to just Skye or similar at some point. But I think this thread has reached a terminus.

  24. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Commenters, as rollicking good fun as this discussion is, it would be more edifying is you would all take some time to read around this blog and The Failed Buddhist a bit in order to get a better sense of the nature of our creatureliness. It is obvious from your comments that you think we’re up to something we’re probably not.

    For example, the paragraph in which Mark writes “SNB is based on Laruelle’s non-philosophy” etc., belies a mistaken identity, like the witness to a crime who mis-sees the perpetrator. That’s understandable: Laruelle does bear a certain resemblance to the criminals that Mark mentions; and the crimes of SNB do occasionally employ Laruelle’s modus operandi. But not quite. And the differences in both cases are significant. It’s too much to explain here. If you are interested, I can only suggest huffing our fumes for a while.

    An example of what we are not interested in can be found in another of Mark’s comments: “I have been where you are arguing from. It is not a big deal as long as you don’t get stuck there. If you want to defend where you are at then the dialog can’t go on. It would be like someone trying to argue you back into the x-Buddhist fold. Here is a model you might like: the dark night in meditation practise is something like nihilism/relativism in philosophy. There is something on the ‘other side’ of the chasm that is worth the risk”.

    Those comments come off as x-spiritualist parody around here. It contains several features that the SNB project aims to expose and discredit, such as, the unassailability of inner experience; the primacy of an atomized self; the promise of an ultimate reward; the fulfillment of one’s curative fantasy; virtuosic access to a supernal-sounding “other side,” and more. (Come to think of it, these are the very kinds of idealism that the current post rejects as dangerous.) That paragraph could contain what this project considers demonstrably liberatory thinking, but certain operations would have to be performed on it first. And doing so would render your thinking unrecognizable to a seeker of the idealist outcome you suggest. Again, Chaim Wigder’s essay makes this point about Pragmatic Dharma generally, and Daniel Ingram specifically.

  25. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Hi Glenn, I do not think SNB is a replica of Laruelle’s philosophy. That you are taking a lot from there seems obvious. If we need to be held to your literal interpretation of each word, we are not going to get far.

    The reference to the chasm IS a parody. Maybe too hard to read, but lack of humour on your part. Yes we can play games and I can show you are an ignoramus writing exactly what you think you aren’t. Derrida did it much better than either of us can, so I don’t see the point. There is the trace of religion in SNB too, of course.

    Oh but I used “I”, so I must be a capitalist subject. But I see the immanence in your prose, so I will bow down. (PS that is parody, or are we not allowed that either?)

    I would like to see if you can find some understanding with Daniel, it is unlikely to arrive if you both sit in on your paradigms, he seems to be making quite some effort. Something like Mathew’s idea of “the way of the non” might annoy both of you enough to find some common ground.

  26. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Thank you for your helpful comment, parletre. (I encourage anyone interested in Wigder’s post to go over to parletre for related content.) Chaim will surely address your comment directly. I thought I’d take the opportunity to briefly demonstrate a bit of what’s going on at this blog by saying something about “determination in the last instance” in the Laruellean usage, which non-buddhism works with. I have to write this in a bit of a hurry, so I might need to come back to it later.

    Laruelle is interested in the ways in which a form of thought constitutes a World. Uppercase W World indicates the reflexive, largely unconscious projection of an ideology-matrix onto the world. Lowercase w world indicates our material conditions, including symbolic systems like language and ideology. My World is an “hallucination” to the extent that my ideology-projection remains unconscious to me. Both of these practices, ideology formation and projection, are constitutive of human being. So, similar to x-buddhism and psychoanalysis I suppose, interminable critical awareness is crucial to “awakening” and “liberation,” however those ideas are understood (and wherever on the idealist-materialist continuum they operate). Unlike other unitary systems, such as x-buddhism and psychoanalysis I suppose, this awareness must remain as a condition of perpetual estrangement to precisely such systems, including the decimated “non” system (non-philosophy, non-buddhism, non-marxism, whatever). 

    Laruelle suspects that Marx has taken more than just capitalism as his object of analysis. Namely, he has also taken up philosophy. And in taking up philosophy, he is taking up a discourse on the Real. This spells trouble. Wigder’s current essay articulates examples of the general trouble as it pertains to Pragmatic Dharma discourse. In short, the trouble begins when x-system intermixes its postulates with the (necessarily and axiomatically) foreclosed Real; mistakes that mixture for the Real; projects it back onto the world; gazes on the world and sees reflected therein the hallucinated World; thus becoming, in the person of the subject, the very “shape” of the World. The way this Real-trouble manifests in Buddhism is, I believe, very easy to detect. Detection requires, however, that one passes from both a good and bad subject to a disinterested subject of x-buddhism. (That subject position is difficult to maintain vis a vis x-buddhism because the predictable tendency would be total abandonment.)

    The concept of determination in the last instance is crucial to the decimation or ruination of x-system. But it must first be “radicalized,” or ruined itself. In short, “It no longer means determination by the economic or the material but by the Real.” 

    I recommend that curious readers go to Laruelle directly for more. Be warned that his manner of thinking and writing is weird and difficult. Having finally arrived at the point where I can do things with his material, I can only offer that there are very good reasons for this strangeness. These reasons have everything to do with the nature of the very issue at hand: the dangers of ideological interpellation and subjugation of the person, and the capture of desire and drive on which these feed. The particular variety of strangeness encountered should serve to close off any and all perceived pathways into the Real, and to show them for the conceptual fata morganas that they are. Another reason for the difficulty is that you will encounter the disfigured bastardized offspring of familiar faces from the history of thought, from Plotinus to Deleuze.   

    If you so choose to accept this mission, visit Speculative Heresy for more on Laruelle’s concept of determination in the last instance.

  27. Ben Hopkins Avatar
    Ben Hopkins

    In reference to Bodhisattva vows, I think their meaning was at least somewhat coopted by the hippie Americanization of Buddhism to mean something like social justice vigilance. The language of the vows honestly seems pretty meaningless if you don’t really believe in reincarnation .

  28. Mitro Avatar
    Mitro

    Glenn: Your Laurelle for dummies post is much appreciated. The cohort who would be likely to martyr themselves with the comprehensive approach to such an endeavour of understanding, I assume would be very small. If you can’t package this stuff into a couple of paragraphs then you have already lost 99% of the lay populace who are essential to any change in thought or action that I am guessing you are looking for, or any mass participation in dialogue that would be bring a slow shift or turning. This has been the beauty (or evil) of westernized x-buddhism in general. It is easy on all levels and allows everyone to tackle it within there comfortable depths, to the disagreement ofcourse to traditional hardcore buddhists and more progressive sanghas (which actually do exist and are probably somewhat aligned to your message here).

    Where academic theory meets tangible practice and experience is at least to me a hug dillemma. It’s fine to grasp the abstract nature of ‘perpetual estrangement to precisely such systems, including the decimated “non” system (non-philosophy, non-buddhism, non-marxism, whatever)’ but what does mean in living? And this also goes for the determination of last instance. This no longer meaning determination by the economic or material but by the real seems quite the task once dismantled from the Ivory tower of thought the lived world, if possible at all. It actually seems to run quite parallel to the impossible vows of x-buddhism and the instruction of allowing an internal collapse and dissolution of everything just said within the heart sutra.

    Is this forum and process (because I do see the value of this more in the process than the symbolism of what has been expounded) the inverse of Zazen where instead of working from the still silence you work from the distracted intellectual noise? In both cases abandonment and desperation and letting go will inevitably come from the sysiphian expectations that are put forward. Action cannot be avoided in the end, you either have to keep pushing that boulder, let in flatten you or do a quick shaolin side step to watch it role by and then remain purposeless.

    I write at the risk of being a nuisance and insult to the majority involved in such high browed discussions, but when all is said done what is the reality where all this dialogue has just unfolded?

  29. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Parlêtre: Good question, and thank you for your comment. I’m glad that there is someone here who is willing to actually engage in dialogue.

    By “determination in the last instance,” as I understand him, Althusser is indeed making a claim related to the primacy of the economic base in determining the superstructure. I would not say, however, that Althusser wants to “reduce” all structures to the economic base. Nor is he claiming in any way that the economic is more “real” than the mind. He is doing something more subtle here. He argues, for example, that elements within the superstructure can and do in fact influence and determine each other in concrete ways, and that they even do so “with relative autonomy” (Althusser, 1969). Crucially, however, such interaction is limited by, and subordinate to, economics. That is to say that what the dominant element in the superstructure is which overdetermines its other element(s) is ultimately itself determined by production, the latter of which sets the limits of such interactions. Specifically, economics will, “in the last instance,” determine which element in the superstructure is dominant, by excluding those elements which fail to reproduce the mode and relations of production and by favoring those which do aid in reproduction.

    This is not to say that economics, or material reality, is more “real” than the mind. (Tom Pepper tries to make this point repeatedly.) Both are equally “real”, and yet they are real in different ways and, moreover, one can still dominate the other without somehow having to be understood as being more “real.” I know this is a strange notion to accept, but that is what Althusser, Pepper (and I guess now I) are arguing. The implication of this idea is, in Althusser’s words that, “it obliges us to think what the Marxist tradition calls conjointly the relative autonomy of the superstructure and the reciprocal action of the superstructure on the base.”

    That is to say, we are not required to pick one or the other register of reality and designate it as being more “real” than the other. AND YET, we can still say, while avoiding such a move, that (a) one of them is dominant, in the last instance, over the other, and that (b) the dominated can still have an effect on the dominant (the latter is how agency is possible). This a very different way of thinking about this than most people are used to or are capable of. This is why Mark, above, for example, thinks that I am somehow offering a “foundational” philosophy. He cannot conceive of a reality existing at two different registers, each equally “real,” yet with one being determinant of the process of interaction and domination between elements of the other, and as such, with them being “real” in different ways. Because he cannot get beyond his desire for a foundational philosophy, Mark fails to see that he is stuck in one, and projects such a philosophy onto anything that doesn’t conform to his foundational assumption that mind and matter must either (a) have the same exact ontological status as one another, and therefore that neither can be determinant of the other, or that (the only alternative is that) (b) one must be reduced to the other. Althusser is arguing that we must move past this duality, that we stop falling for essentialist ideologies which don’t allow us to think in terms of economic and of production.

  30. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    To tie this Althusser discussion back to the OP: Althusser is trying to avoid is the passive relativism that x-buddhists, for example, are so good at. He would reject the notion of “interdependence” as it is understood by x-buddhists. When x-buddhists talk about “interdependence,” they are making a very particular claim about the nature of causality. Namely, they want to claim that reality must be understood as an infinite causal nexus in which everything is connected to everything else in an unfathomably complex web of “causes and conditions.” What is implicit in such a view as it is held by x-buddhists are the notions that (a) everything causes everything, and (b) everything is connected equally and in the same way, i.e. through some unspecified mystical process called “interdependence.” This view and its implicit notions, in my experience, leads to the conclusion that the world is too causally complex and multifaceted for us lowly humans to grasp, and that therefore the only thing we can do is to somehow experience, “directly,”—to allow ourselves to submit to—“emptiness,” “things as they are,” etc. Althusser would say that, actually, not everything causes everything. When it comes to the social realm, things have specific causes, and those causes are in the last instance determined materially, in the realm of production.

    Take two popular descriptions of the concept of interdependence, both from articles in Lion’s Roar magazine. I am going to quote at length, because these examples help illustrate precisely the error I believe Althusser wants to avoid. Particular attention should be paid not only to the ontological claims here, but also to the conclusions about human life which they lead to. In the first example, the author is writing about the “law” of interdependent origination:

    “According to this law, nothing has independent, permanent, or absolute existence. Everything is part of a limitless web of interconnections and undergoes a continual process of transformation. Every appearance arises from complex causes and conditions, and in turn combines with others to produce countless effects.”

    The author goes on to discuss the twelve-link chain, following the discussion up with the assertion that ”Although the links appear sequentially, they may also be seen as interconnected, simultaneous, and mutually dependent.” This somehow leads the author to the conclusion—although he does not attempt to demonstrate the logical process by which it does so—that “nothing produced by interdependent origination has ultimate reality . . . It is an illusion appearing from ignorance . . .”

    Next example: This one is even more shot through with blatantly x-buddhist (and thus capitalist and Romantic) ideology, as it is written by none other than His Holiness the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje. His Holiness teaches us:

    “Everything is embedded within a context—a complex set of circumstances. Those contexts themselves are endlessly shifting . . . Anything can come into being because there is no fixed way for things to be. It all depends on the conditions that come together.”

    This leads to the following conclusions on The Karmapa’s part:

    “Everything is embedded within a context—a complex set of circumstances. Those contexts themselves are endlessly shifting.”

    “[Things] lack any independent existence outside of . . . changing contexts. Because everything and everyone is “empty” in this sense, they are capable of endless adaptation. We ourselves have the basic flexibility to adapt to anything, and to become anything.”

    “Interdependence and emptiness show us that there are no fixed starting points. We can start from nothing. Whatever we have, wherever we are—that is the place we can start from. Many people have the idea that they lack what they need in order to start working toward their dreams. They feel they do not have enough power, or they do not have enough money. But they should know that any point is the right starting point. This is the perspective that emptiness opens up. We can start from zero.”

    Obviously, these conclusions are false. They are also dangerous. And they are based on an inability to grasp Althusser’s point, that the economic base is determinant, in the last instance, of what is possible for our subjective configurations and the limitations therein. We do not, as humans, “have the basic flexibility to adapt to anything,” nor can we “start from nothing,” because we are “always already,” to use another of Althusser’s terms, interpolated into an existing social formation consisting of particular ideological practices and discourses. These ideologies are determined by (although not reducible to!), the unity of the dominant mode and relations of production. And they can be harmful in ways that humans cannot “adapt” to by simply changing their “understanding” or gaining “insight.”

    Look at the kind of ideology that this x-buddhist notion of interdependence, and its characteristic failure to address economics, produces. From the same article:

    “You can see interdependence at work by looking at how your own life is sustained. Is it only through your own exertions? Do you manufacture all your own resources? Or do they come from others? When you contemplate these questions, you will see very quickly that you are able to exist only because of others. The clothes you wear and the food you eat all come from somewhere else. Consider the books you read, the cars you ride in, the movies you watch, and the tools you use. Not one of us single-handedly makes any of these things for ourselves. We all rely on outside conditions, including the air we breathe. Our continued presence here in the world is an opportunity made possible entirely by others.”

    This kind of platitude serves only to avoid any actual investigation of our ideologies. All we have to do is understand this “profound” teaching that our our lives and our social practices are made possible by others in order to attain endless bliss. I would argue that it is not enough to become mystified by this immature understanding of “interdependence.” Rather, we must actually investigate our ideologies in a way that addresses its materiality. For example: why is Karmapa assuming that what the human being is is just a passive receptacle for consuming commodities created by others? Can he not conceive of a world in which we are all active agents participating in the process of production to the extent that we are able, while engaging in creative and intellectual pursuits and having our basic needs met, instead of a world where the vast majority of people are forced to sell their labor so that your upper class x-buddhist can consume its products and “appreciate” the interdependence that makes his exploitative enjoyment possible?

  31. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Mitro. What happens on this blog is not academic. No academic worth her weight in footnotes would come anywhere near us. Yes, a few brave academic souls have stopped by for a whiskey and a smoke over the years. But our work is most decidedly incomprehensible to the properly-interpellated, well-behaved academic. Now, that is not to say we are not difficult at times, and always informed, well-read, and thoughtful. But that’s a whole other matter, isn’t it? What goes on here is saturated with the concrete, or what you call “tangible practice and experience.” But of course you shouldn’t take my word for it. You ask, “when all is said done what is the reality where all this dialogue has just unfolded?” I suggest that you pose this question to people who have engaged the non-buddhist work. A good place to begin is Matthew O’Connell’s Imperfect Buddha podcast episodes on his engagement with non-buddhism. There are several by now. Thanks for your comment.

  32. sourfoot Avatar
    sourfoot

    FB “I cannot tell if you are being facetious, or if you are really failing in reading comprehension.”

    I was being facetious as well as failing terribly in my comprehension. But thanks for the answer. It helps.

    FB: “I don’t care about traditions. I am not a Mahayanist, and so my issue with pragmatic dharma has nothing to do with sectarianism.”

    I know something about non-buddhism and would have guessed that you wouldn’t self-identify as a Buddhist, or as a Mahayan Buddhist. It was a observation about a perception (mine) of your signs of behaviour. But if you say this has nothing to do with being sectarian, I will take your word for it. (yes, that is me being facetious again).

    You raise the Bodhisattva vow, and you write “My intention is to locate the real causes of suffering for the vast majority of human beings, and figure out the mechanisms by which these causes can be eradicated. “… “X-buddhists like Ingram will respond that they share this intention of mine.”

    Would he though? I don’t think he would. Pragmatic Dharmaists are very explicitly individualistic, and probably think Bodhisattvas are saps. x-buddhists festishize pleasant states because a key goal is to experience pleasant states, and reduce suffering from themselves. And so, yes, it makes them complicit in capitalism’s bad bits, blind to their ideology, and they aren’t truly “enlightened”. Selfish bastards the lot of them!

    But what you appear to need to do for your argument to take it as a given that we all have the same goal. And that your (non-)Buddhism beats their Buddhism because their method is a poor way of achieving the shared goals that we all have, and your method is better.

    FB: “I don’t think Mahayanist are any better than Theravadins, or vice versa. They are equally complicit in reproducing oppressive social formations.”

    Ok, but it seems like you do think that you, and others in your sect/gang/clique/in-group, are morally better than those Buddhists who don’t share your ideology, and you reinforce your in-group credentials through vilifying that out-group. i.e sectarianism. And hence, geovock’s (on-topic?) humorous response of where this leads when “you want people to” convert to your way of doing things.

    I think it’s this, as much as stuff like Laurelle etc being hard to understand, that puts people off non-buddhism, and engaging in the dialogue you say you want.

  33. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    sourfoot: Your comment is a precise illustration of the kinds of delusion that I am hoping to correct.

    You write:

    “x-buddhists festishize pleasant states because a key goal is to experience pleasant states, and reduce suffering from themselves. ”

    I am arguing that this is not a goal worth having, because it prevents others who are crippled by our social formation from being able to commit to their own goals and put them into action.

    The x-buddhists’ insistence on avoiding reality in order to live in bliss is actively harmful, as is the notion, implicit in your comment, that all goals are equally moral no matter how much suffering they produce.

    You go on:

    “But what you appear to need to do for your argument to take it as a given that we all have the same goal. And that your (non-)Buddhism beats their Buddhism because their method is a poor way of achieving the shared goals that we all have, and your method is better.”

    My argument does not require that people share my goals. This is why I posed the question of what the reader’s intention is, so that I don’t have to waste my time on people who do not share my intention to address suffering, and instead have the goal of reinforcing delusion, of avoiding an engagement with the world without an iota of concern with respect to the enormous suffering that is required for their goal to exist.

    I have another goal, related to my primary one, to come to a true understanding of the world. It is a truth that capitalism does not allow for most people to sufficiently develop and explore their goals in creative ways, so any goal that does not include an explicit consideration of changing the world is morally wrong. The first half that statement is a truth, while the second one is an ideology. This idea that any attempt to point out the truth, or to point out that our ideologies are harmful, is somehow mean, oppressive, a plot to “convert,” etc, is no more than an idiodic and childish way to justify abandoning the truth for the comfort of delusion.

  34. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    If you really want to join the Pragmatic Dharma playpen and abandon the truth and remain in blissful delusion be my guest. Just please do me a favor and stop pretending to give a shit about “dukkha.” And maybe don’t clog up the comments section with incoherent rants like Mark’s, or geovock’s, which serve only to derail the conversation away from the suffering of living things and into spiritualist and capitalist nonsense.

  35. Mitro Avatar
    Mitro

    Failed Buddhist: I am genuinely intrigued and interested in your position here. I don’t know what experiences you have had with buddhism to bundle all traditions into the x-buddhism category, but from what I gather you are saying they are all self-indulgent and socially autistic. Are you saying that there are no traditionally evolved communities that are spiritually engaged but also socially aware and active? If so then I must be not just delusional but living some obscure hallucination with regards to what I have heard and seen in certain buddhist movements. If not then how do they fit into this paradigm of x-buddhism? Truth is one thing and action is another and the relationship between the two can quite easily be turned on its head when the the most common or most obvious expectations aren’t satisfied. Can you agree with the search for the truth but not the action that follows or vice versa or do you think that the truth and action always ideologically or philosophically correlate? I guess I am confused here because I see sanghas that practice the delusions you mention in this context but then act in accordance with what you mention of becoming involved in the human flesh and guts real world. In my view who cares whether you think it’s virtual reality or not as long as you play like your life depends on it. Is this way off the mark?

  36. geovock Avatar
    geovock

    Mitro – It seems to me that besides FB and Glenn everyone else here is in fact, “way off the mark.” Having failed to embrace our comrades in the proper disinterested subjectivity of non-Buddhism, (“a condition of perpetual estrangement”) we are clogging, “up the comments section with incoherent rants like Mark’s,” or mine, and derailing, “the conversation away from the suffering of living things and into spiritualist and capitalist nonsense,” as FB notes. Thus perhaps more immanent material methods for our re-education than mere “huffing our fumes,” as Glenn puts it are in order, e.g. direct i.v. administration under controlled clinical conditions of maximum concentration x-Marxist kool aid. [Note – I recently heard that a cabal of radical x-Buddhists have developed just such a method to administer their own proprietary “jhana juice” and having found it to be highly effective are preparing to market it as “Direct Experience Drip,” (DED) ]

  37. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    geovock. Would you be interested in saying something about your own x-buddhist commitments? Do I correctly detect a strategy of evasion and deflection in your comments? It would be interesting, too, to hear your rebuttal of Wigder’s actual argument.

    (And just for the record, I do not subscribe to Marxism.)

  38. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Geovock: You’re so funny, really. Have you considered taking your capitalist ideology on the road and performing at stand up clubs? Perhaps you can even start an entire new genre and call it “reactionary comedy.” Then you can copyright it, get rich, and enjoy meditating yourself into a lobotomy on a gold-plated cushion. Or, you can stop acting like a child who throws a tantrum when presented with reason and argumentation, and choose delusion over truth. It’s up to you.

  39. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Mitro:
    “Are you saying that there are no traditionally evolved communities that are spiritually engaged but also socially aware and active”

    This depends on what you mean by “socially aware and active.” So far I have only ever met x-buddhists who insist that we must not consider challenging capitalism. Are you aware of any counterexamples? I would like to know about them.

    “Can you agree with the search for the truth but not the action that follows or vice versa or do you think that the truth and action always ideologically or philosophically correlate?”

    I’m not sure I fully understand your question, but I don’t see these two things as the same. Truth and ideology are not the same thing, although we need to make us of both. The first thing we must do is make explicit what our intentions are. Geovock’s intention is to avoid reality and reproduce capitalist ideology, by trolling those who want to reduce suffering and derailing the conversation from people genuinely interested in dialogue like you are. In order to carry out his intention, he is required to deny the truth. My intention is to avoid reproducing capitalist ideology, and to address the suffering that it causes. Once we have made our intentions explicit, then we can act collectively. But we cannot so if we deny the truth.

  40. Mitro Avatar
    Mitro

    Failed Buddhist: When I refer to social awareness and action I refer to exactly what you are talking about but that doesn’t mean it always has to be explicit. An x-buddhist movement does not require an anti-capitalist or Anarchist manifesto built into their doctrine to ensure the relevant action. As you know the interpretation of the teachings can take many forms ranging from a denial and therefore passive acceptance of social reality to a need for a complete immersion at all levels of reality including the social. Action also does not need to be an overt and obvious move to overthrow capitalistic systems and structures and all the divisive and controlling disharmony that goes along with them but can be conducted using subversion in a more nuanced and strategic manner. In saying all that groups like the Zen Peacekeepers or Diamond Sangha and its branches although not combat boot clad militants are socially engaged and active and do discuss everything including civil rights, colonialism, market capitalism, techno-dictatorship, suveillance capitalism and so on albeit in a simple way and are very aware of the REAL shit problems arising in this world and have never said step away but instead encourage one to dive head first into the muck and act accordingly. Yes I agree there is nothing like what you mention which is a completely devoted sangha hell bent on bringing down the system but I assure you seeds have been planted and are flourishing within existent communities. Spiritually engaged social action is a tangible and real phenomenon.

    With regards to my second point, yes it could have been clearer. I am glad you agree that truth and action are not the same but how are they aligned? The same truth can lead to contradictory actions and different truths (if that’s your leaning) can lead to the same action. The truth is the elephant in the room here because how you acquire it is obviously one of the main contentions of all this work. You have clearly stated your disagreement with relativism and have some philosophy that is still a bit obscure to me of how there is a one truth which I am assuming is built on some principle of sufficient reason or the like.  Assuming one objective truth is the case this can still lead to contrary actions depending on the ideologies developed from that truth… am I grasping this? And we can’t escape ideology so we must have dialogue on mass to reach a balancing point. Other than logistics this is not a bad opinion to have. But does that detract from the action and put the focus on truth. If we achieve the same result whether we follow the path to the the truth (let’s still say yours is the real one) or worship God or sit like Buddha’s or Heil Satan in some clever humanitarian way (as the Satanic activists are currently doing in the States) does the truth matter as much. Is this a call to an objective truth or a desired action and result? Or both? Or does unified action towards a certain outcome adversely point to a different truth irrespective of belief and your truth in which case it sits between it all and doesn’t need to focus on details of where everyone is originally grounded.

    I’m rambling again but hopefully some sense can be made of this. As I said earlier at least for me the value of all this is in each and everyone’s process including geovock and his comical genius.

  41. Mitro Avatar
    Mitro

    Also, as an adjunct, for all it is worth, the continuing transformation of the bodhisattva vows to deal with the reprehensible political and socio-economic structures we have involuntarily been chained to, is another testament to the organically mutating form of traditional practice.

    Two examples:
    – Roshi Joan Halifax

    Creations are numberless, I vow to free them

    Delusions are inexhaustable, I vow to transform them

    Reality is boundless, I vow to perceive it

    The awakened way is unsurpassable, I vow to embody it

    -Tim Hjersted

    Although the problems of the world are innumerable, we vow to solve them.

    Although the suffering of humanity is limitless, we vow to lesson it.

    Although creating a sustainable civilization may be impossible, we vow to create it.

    Although saving the world is impossible, we vow to save it.

    And there is more if you look hard enough. All a moving a away from the self and the illusion towards the other and the socially real. At no point is it instructed that social reality in all its oppressive nature must be rejected or denied but rather embraced and wrestled with perpetually even in the face of futility.

  42. Paula Burns Avatar
    Paula Burns

    Mitro, thank you for your input – also geovock – why your contributions are viewed as trolling is beyond me?
    I wonder how many people like myself (who have taken the time to read Glenn’s books, are gradually working their way round SNB’s site and are generally putting the effort into understanding some pretty difficult intellectual stuff) feel paralyzed when it comes to contributing to the dialogue?
    Is this a dialogue – is there a hermeneutic exchange possible here? I’m beginning to doubt it.
    In the main I see an almost compulsive generalisation and stereotyping of ‘rich middle class x buddhists’ as though no other ‘class’ of x buddhist exists? This supposition is IMHO foreclosing any possibility of dialogue here.
    FB I feel it is an overt simplification to state that the goal of the x buddhist is to train the mind to ‘accept’ whatever ‘sensate experience’ arises. I have found in a great deal of literature/teaching a heightened awareness of the dangers of ‘spiritual bypassing’ or as I would prefer to frame it ‘psychological repression.’ I would suggest that there is a strong movement within x buddhism to mitigate against the form of mind training/ideological paralysis/numbing that makes it possible to ignore the depth of suffering both within the wider world and one’s own internal world. We have to begin first with our inner world because that’s the bedrock of empathy.
    It’s simply not true to classify all x buddhists as non-empathic, ideologically unaware and non-desirous of political change. I’m not keen on the term ‘socially engaged buddhism’ which I feel is often used as a sop because buddhist or not – we ALL need to be socially engaged. I don’t see x buddhism – ruined or not – as in any way a driving force for world change but conversely I also don’t see it as standing in the way. The most that can be said is that for some subjects it can be a way in to understanding self and other.
    I do see x buddhism as a useful practice for exploring our minds – as helping us to be less reactive so that we can start ‘small’ – with our immediate relationships with family, friends, community. We have to learn to strutt the small stuff before we get onto the macro. I believe all political systems fail to work for the good of all because as humans we simply can’t manage this. This is an essential paradigm shift we’ve yet to make. There is no such thing as social awareness without mind awareness.
    I just get the impression that this project is galvanised by a prior attachment to ‘buddhism’ that has suffered disenchantment and doesn’t know whether to cling on to or let go? I would like to see the ‘bashing’ and the clinging move on. There’s not enough about personal practice, how we’re evolving, what ruination means to us. The overthrow of the Capitalist system may be in the mix but if you’re going to make that fundamental, and rubbish the thoughts of those of us who maybe aren’t quite on board regarding that as being at the top of our agenda, I think its a real shame and quite frankly a loss.
    Sorry – this ain’t intellectual and possibly doesn’t pass muster for what’s required here but you need to know this conversation could be so much wider and inclusive (less bloody bourgeoisie and therefore patronising) if you’d just loosen up a bit and allow some real speak.

  43. geovock Avatar
    geovock

    Precisely! To wit: Paula Burns – “Is this a dialogue – is there a hermeneutic exchange possible here? I’m beginning to doubt it… I just get the impression that this project is galvanised by a prior attachment to ‘buddhism’ that has suffered disenchantment and doesn’t know whether to cling on to or let go? I would like to see the ‘bashing’ and the clinging move on… The overthrow of the Capitalist system may be in the mix but if you’re going to make that fundamental, and rubbish the thoughts of those of us who maybe aren’t quite on board regarding that as being at the top of our agenda, I think its a real shame and quite frankly a loss.” And Mitro – “At no point is it instructed that social reality in all its oppressive nature must be rejected or denied but rather embraced and wrestled with perpetually even in the face of futility.”

  44. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    What about this idea for facilitating the kind of hermeneutic exchange I understand Paula to be seeking? After people have expressed themselves in writing, we, or some two or combination of people, gather on Zoom for a discussion, which will be recorded and uploaded. This is a way to get past the paralysis that Paula refers to, as well as potentially move beyond the inevitable impasses of understanding. Thoughts?

  45. sourfoot Avatar
    sourfoot

    SF:“x-buddhists festishize pleasant states because a key goal is to experience pleasant states, and reduce suffering from themselves. ”

    FB:”I am arguing that this is not a goal worth having, because it prevents others who are crippled by our social formation from being able to commit to their own goals and put them into action.”

    Ok, so the upper middle class x-buddhist scapegoat, who suffered abuse as a child, and lives with life long chronic anxiety and depression. They want to have a (“unquestioned”? “unconscious”?) goal to reduce their suffering, but this “is not worth having”. Instead, they should dedicate their lives to constantly living to relieve the suffering of the working classes, in order that the working classes can seek their own goals to reduce their own suffering? Or should the working classes also be striving the relieve the suffering over all beings, over their own?

    “My argument does not require that people share my goals. This is why I posed the question of what the reader’s intention is, so that I don’t have to waste my time on people who do not share my intention to address suffering, and instead have the goal of reinforcing delusion, of avoiding an engagement with the world without an iota of concern with respect to the enormous suffering that is required for their goal to exist.”

    FB, when you post on twitter, and you are complicit in the ad-revenue generation of our capitalist overlords, and thus contribute to the enormous suffering of others, do you engage in some act of self-flagellation to make yourself feel better? How do you actually live in this world, constantly living without delusion, and constantly knowing how your actions further lead to the suffering of the working classes? Do you spend a lot of time doing the brahma viharas? Because it sounds pretty heavy.

    Note this is somewhat facetious, but the mayanaists have some experience here. Working towards relieving the suffering of all beings is difficult, so they have practices to take the edge off. Maybe they just help perpetuate feudal autocracies and maintain the status quo, but once you shift everyone to your new world order free of delusion, some of these might be useful “tech” for you and your comrades (I, sadly for me, will be the death camp with the audi drivers).

    FB: “I have another goal, related to my primary one, to come to a true understanding of the world. It is a truth that capitalism does not allow for most people to sufficiently develop and explore their goals in creative ways”

    How is this a truth? I would classify this is an opinion, and hard to gauge without explication of terms. Some people would argue, particularly given how the 20th century went, that capitalism is the best system we have for allowing that. It has its advantages and disadvantages. Maybe there is something better. As interpolated as I am in neoliberal ideology, it’s hard to see an alternative, though here I am, posting on this blog (feel free to call me some names though).

    FB: “so any goal that does not include an explicit consideration of changing the world is morally wrong. The first half that statement is a truth, while the second one is an ideology. This idea that any attempt to point out the truth, or to point out that our ideologies are harmful, is somehow mean, oppressive, a plot to “convert,” etc, is no more than an idiotic and childish way to justify abandoning the truth for the comfort of delusion”.

    This all seems to just boil down to statements about your moral beliefs. Moral relativism is wrong, and there is a correct morality, the one you hold. I don’t really rebut anything in the core argument of your original post, other than the bits about the pragmatists not being aware of what they are doing (I think they are relatively good at optimising for their goals) if you accept your moral position as the “right” one.

    Let’s go back this:
    “Which I am defining as being aware of one’s ideology, and being able to understand their material functions within our social formation, so as to decide whether they are worth participating in.”

    Through a process of breaking the spell of x-buddhism, with some help of the likes of Glenn, I am better aware of my ideology, and what I participate in, and trying to figure out how to participate in that world with some delusions seen through. A human world of delusions. I haven’t quit my job, left my family and gone to live in an anarcho-commune. And I get upset when my car gets scratched. And I admit I care more about the suffering of myself and those close to me than the those starving in the Congo. Am I bad person Chaim? Given I am a rich middle class x-buddhist, am I even worse than the fully deluded ones? Are you wasting your time conversing with me, a pollution to the blog, with no hope of hermeneutic exchange?

  46. Paula Burns Avatar
    Paula Burns

    Thanks for the response/suggestion Glenn. It might be interesting to try but I think it will possibly result in an audio version of what happens here.
    It seems the impasses are inevitable because the fixed opinions are so apparent. You can’t have a hermeneutic exchange without curiosity and openess and those intentions are sometimes lacking. Lets pluck a few negative descriptors from the ‘discussion’ as to how views that do not chime with our own might affect us – ‘tedious,nauseating, spiritual narcissism, sneaky and tiring, etc, etc’ .
    All of the energy around that creates an element of ‘jouissance’ with words – there’s a kind of performative aspect that feels valorized over plain speak and I witness a huge investment in the unveiling of intellectual prowess in the clinging to quite determinate views. There seems to be an assumption along the lines of ‘I’ve put more intellectual work into arriving at my opinion than you have and have reached a non-negotiable postulate based on an intention that is superior and therefore nearer to ‘truth’ than yours – both in its intentionality and thesis.’
    I think you wrote someplace that you were incapable of expressing yourself in a clearly accessible way and would welcome someone else doing that – maybe that was tongue in cheek and I think you might mentally combust having to witness it – but I’d really enjoy being part of an attempt to do so.
    I think I’d appreciate a clear statement from you – is this discussion (in the main) intended for those who only want to discuss suffering in relation to social formation? And how realistic is it to expect the human psyche to maintain a state of ‘perpetual estrangement’ in relation to unitary systems? What does that mean in lived action?
    Sorry if this is disjointed but following on from the above – I’m interested in what you lay out as ‘phases’ on your path from original intentions to the here and now. It feels the journey between Buddhism111 and Buddhism V is particularly relevant as I would wager the interest in your thesis would be relevant for many x buddhists identifying with phase 111.
    I don’t much like the term ‘phases’ because to get from 111 to V must involve not only a hard labour of intellectual thought but a distinct rupture in one’s practice.
    So – all I’m saying – for anyone on this path of exploration – a bit of respect please, and patience (most of us have busy lives with considerable care responsibilities for others and not in a position to commit hours and hours to intellectual pursuit) – and don’t just intellectually cut people off at the pass because you’re impatient with the gaps in knowledge – because if you do that you’re creating some weird kind of class system here around words/expression – which is kinda ironic don’t you think?

    Thanking everyone for their time/thoughts – whether I agree or not I consider it all and none of it is wasted.

  47. geovock Avatar
    geovock

    I may be contacted for further “hermeneutic exchange” at my email address per gravatar.

  48. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Thank you for your helpful comment, Paula. We have been grappling with finding a valuable model of “hermeneutic exchange” since the very first comment engagements. Given what I believe to be a self-censuring puritanical strain in x-buddhist discourse, my initial decision was to create an unrestrained forum. Our motto back then expressed our lawless Wild West approach: “kick out the jams, motherfuckers!” Until 2019, not one single comment was disallowed. This policy earned us a bad reputation with x-buddhist right-speechists and academics alike. (See “Ann Gleig on SNB” and “Annabella Pitkin’s Review.”) Another motto: “Nothing is more ridiculous than a blogger who wants to be liked” (Nietzsche, sort of). My hope was not to ensure genteel discourse. My hope was to incite insurgents to unsettle the well-mannered communal customs of x-buddhism, and to hurl conceptual Molotov cocktails to flush out the blackguards. Not rarely did this effort to unsettle take the form of verbal kyosaku. 

    This changed in 2019. I have since then actually disallowed a few comments and even commenters. Why? Not because of their caustic nature, but because of their uninformed nature cum ideological certitude. One or the other would be fine. Surely, it’s not difficult to understand the extraordinarily tedious nature of communicating with practitioners and teachers who are barely distinguishable from Opus Dei! You can only go back to step one so many times before brain cell decimation occurs. If the commenter seems to be a sincere inquirer, that’s one thing. But when they are apparently only interested in spreading the Good News of the Dharma of the True Law, it’s another.

    So, that’s a little background.

    Let’s take the very first comment on this thread as an example of the slim margins for a genuine “hermeneutic exchange.” What should we make of geovock‘s comment? Was it in good faith? Was it intended to disprove FB’s thesis? Assuming he read the article that he cites, did he not notice those very points that I felt compelled as blog admin to make (as time-consuming and uninteresting as it was for me to do so)? If geovock had read but hadn’t noticed, where does that leave us in terms of good faith dialogue? Even if I wholeheartedly believed what I wrote in the cited article, how would that impact FB’s argument? Does geovock’s opening, “Yea isn’t that just like a bourgee x-Buddhist to value, ‘individual practice and a focus on immediate experience,’ above all else” suggest a genuine willingness to engage and explore? or does it suggest sarcasm? butthurt defensiveness? disgust? disappointment? confusion? In short, how can we divine the actual point geovock was trying to make? It’s really difficult. In fact, the x-buddhist concept of “thicket of views” applies as a general principle: If it’s a comment, it’s probably a thicket of views. (Maybe geovock and I can experiment with the Zoom idea over the issues I raise here.)

    So, the kind of “hermeneutic exchange” that you suggest and actually seem capable of, is a tall order in the samsaric calamity that is an early twenty-first century comment section. I agree that being conscious of the fact that a flesh and blood person is on the other side, reading your words, is valuable. But I have also observed that people have other ways to demean one another and to derail an argument. More often than not, those ways appear civil, at least at first blush. A bit of training in discourse analysis or rhetorical analysis will help the reader tease out the kinds of ambiguities and dissemblance that I suggest are at work in geovock’s first comment. 

    You say: “I think you wrote someplace that you were incapable of expressing yourself in a clearly accessible way and would welcome someone else doing that – maybe that was tongue in cheek and I think you might mentally combust having to witness it – but I’d really enjoy being part of an attempt to do so.” Yes, I am serious. It would be great if someone more capable than me could do this work. Bloomsbury was (is?) actually interested in such a book. I can’t write it, though.

    You say: “I think I’d appreciate a clear statement from you – is this discussion (in the main) intended for those who only want to discuss suffering in relation to social formation? And how realistic is it to expect the human psyche to maintain a state of ‘perpetual estrangement’ in relation to unitary systems? What does that mean in lived action?” That’s two questions, right? I’ll ask FB to answer the first. Concerning the second, I hope you won’t mind if I plagiarize myself from the discussion at The Imperfect Buddha podcast site: “One last point about practice in light of decision. In contrast to the language, aims, rhetoric, etc., of ‘attainment,’ non-buddhism turns practice into a perpetual labor of inadequacy, into a mode of action that quickens creation precisely through the interminable withdrawal from decision.” Is that answer to your point? It would be a mistake to say more, wouldn’t it?

  49. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Mitro:
    “Action also does not need to be an overt and obvious move to overthrow capitalistic systems and structures and all the divisive and controlling disharmony that goes along with them but can be conducted using subversion in a more nuanced and strategic manner.”

    Can you spot reactionary ideologies? They tend to go something like this: “We don’t really have to get rid of all our delusions, or work to be rid of all of our unjust social formation. Don’t you know that a little delusion is good for you; don’t you want the amount of exploitation in your society to be just right, not too little, not too much? We can’t possibly stop participating in all of our harmful ideologies!”

    For the reactionary, exploitation is “nuanced” and so we must only act in small ways so as to allow a little exploitation to remain. Remember that I am operating from the assumption that the economic is in the last instance determinant of all ideology, and so if you are not explicitly committed to taking on capitalism, then you are not, in fact, referring to “exactly what [I am] talking about,” because I am talking about how we must be willing to talk about the economic base of our social formation if we wish to actually address the suffering it causes. Capitalism is not some boogieman, some big Other which we are powerless over. It is an ideology, plain and simple, and we have to refuse to continue participating in it in collectively.

    “You have clearly stated your disagreement with relativism and have some philosophy that is still a bit obscure to me of how there is a one truth which I am assuming is built on some principle of sufficient reason or the like. Assuming one objective truth is the case this can still lead to contrary actions depending on the ideologies developed from that truth… am I grasping this?”

    No, no, no. I am emphatically not arguing for a “one truth” or ”one objective truth.” I am claiming that there is such a thing as truth; there are things that are true. There is a difference, and this is a big misunderstanding I want to be careful of. I am not claiming that there is some One Ultimate Truth that we must all download onto our minds and in time we will be liberated. I am saying that certain things are true regardless of whether we know or believe it, and that there are ways to know them. For example, that the productive arrangement of a society is in the last instance determinant of that society’s ideologies, social relations, customs, etc. This is not a philosophical claim or an ethical one. It is a truth about the nature of human societies. As human animals we figure out how to produce what we need to survive before we start building movie theaters and sports stadiums. To mistake this kind of claim for a “philosophy” is to fail to acknowledge that there can be truths about the social world.

    On the relation between truth and action, yes, it is important to use the truth to guide our intentions. If we are deluded into believing, for example, that voting X party into government will finally set things right, then we will blindly continue to reproduce the ideologies that have been wreaking havoc all over the world, and that we ostensibly wish to end. It is also possible to have intentions that are simply not possible to achieve in action, such as eliminating suffering by turning inward, or making capitalism more “fair.” These are intentions which conflict with the reality of how human beings, and in particular our social formation, function.

    I really cannot understand why you think that an oppressive social formation should be “embraced and wrestled with perpetually,” rather than transformed, and why geovock finds this to be an attitude worth applauding. Do you not see how such a statement is precisely what I am critiquing here? Clearly our intentions are misaligned, and so I’m not sure how to proceed. I will not cede to your reactionary ideology of resisting any substantial transformation of society out of some Romantic capture by an image of “embrace” and “wrestling” with the world which we will just accept as fundamentally mystified and broken. This kind of passivity is what I want to move beyond.

  50. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Paula: Thank you for your comment. First, I would insist that we reject the truism that “we have to begin first with our inner world.” My entire point here is that, in beginning with our “inner world,” we fail to notice the reality that it is the material world, the world of social and productive relations, that is determinant of our “inner world.” By focusing on “exploring the mind,” we are doing no more than reifying the illusion of an eternal atman, when in reality our self—including what we call “empathy”—exists not in the mind but in the material world, in the social practices we participate in. An investigation of the mind must take place in a critical engagement with the world that is determinant of that mind. To do so we must, for example, reject the Romantic mystification of emotions and treat them as social objects which can be understood in relation to the social nexus which produces them.

    I’m sorry that you feel that “all political systems fail to work for the good of all because as humans we simply can’t manage this.” Such is precisely the ideology that is needed in order to ensure that capitalism will continue its destructive global tour, while we all just throw up our hands and conclude that, for some reason (what reason is that? some law of physics?), constructing a different kind of world is too much to “handle.” I’ll be the first to admit that such a task is very difficult, especially when attempting to do so will surely be met with resistance from reactionaries, who will insist that we cannot possibly change our ideologies for the better, and must submit to the status quo.

    I appreciate the desire for “hermeneutic exchange.” I agree with your statement that such an exchange would require an open mind, and I do want to encourage such a sentiment, but I will say that I will not keep an open mind about the viability of capitalism, or about the possibility of denying the enormous amount of suffering that it produces. If we are agreed on this point, only then is such an exchange possible for me.

    I will say one more thing, in response to your last paragraph:

    “Sorry – this ain’t intellectual and possibly doesn’t pass muster for what’s required here but you need to know this conversation could be so much wider and inclusive (less bloody bourgeoisie and therefore patronising) if you’d just loosen up a bit and allow some real speak.”

    There is no vocabulary requirement at all for participating here, nor is there a particular list of books you have to have read in order to be allowed to speak up. This may sound crazy, but being serious about minimizing delusion and addressing suffering does not require one to have spent years studying French philosophy and practicing grand styles of prose. All it requires is a willingness and ability to not flinch in the face of truth, and to be faithful to reality. This does require learning how to think the world differently than how it is demanded by our world to think, and this means letting go of our attachment to the comforts of our ideology.

  51. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    sourfoot: That capitalism prevents most people from living creative and engaged lives by forcing them to sell their labor for the majority of their lives in order to enrich a tiny percentage of the population is not an “opinion.” Just spend a moment taking a tour around a capitalist society, why don’t you? Maybe walk through a major city and talk to people who are dying in the streets? Or visit the countless psychiatric wards where record numbers of young people are locked up for being unable to “adjust” to capitalism, and require an addiction to profitable drugs to get out of bed, or attempt to commit suicide, etc etc? It really baffles me how people can deny such an obvious truth, as if the fact that there are worse conceivable social formations makes the truth stop being true. As a self-identified “rich middle class x-buddhist,” perhaps it is difficult for you to see reality, because you have a vested interest in keeping this system in place. And yet I remain stubbornly attached to the hope that even those who have a vested interest in delusion have the capability of overcoming it.

    “This all seems to just boil down to statements about your moral beliefs. Moral relativism is wrong, and there is a correct morality, the one you hold.”
    There is no “correct” morality I am arguing for. There are more or less correct ways to reduce suffering, though, and I am arguing that capitalism is a major contributor to suffering. Moreover, I am arguing that any effort to delude ourselves into thinking that the suffering caused by capitalism can be undone without getting rid of capitalism is not an effort worth pursuing. I suppose if you want to argue that it is not desirable to reduce suffering, that this is just a “moral belief” equal to all others, fine, go ahead. But I will simply conclude that you are a psychopath, and move on.
    But wait! You say:

    “Through a process of breaking the spell of x-buddhism, with some help of the likes of Glenn, I am better aware of my ideology, and what I participate in, and trying to figure out how to participate in that world with some delusions seen through. A human world of delusions. I haven’t quit my job, left my family and gone to live in an anarcho-commune. And I get upset when my car gets scratched. And I admit I care more about the suffering of myself and those close to me than the those starving in the Congo. Am I bad person Chaim? Given I am a rich middle class x-buddhist, am I even worse than the fully deluded ones? Are you wasting your time conversing with me, a pollution to the blog, with no hope of hermeneutic exchange?”

    Finally, sourfoot! Now we’re actually getting somewhere! Guess what: I haven’t quit my job or left my family either. I get annoyed when my internet connection is slow (I don’t own a car). I tend to spend more time paying attention to those close to me than victims in the Congo.

    Am I a bad person? Stupid question!

    Better question: Can we collectively commit to changing our social practices? Can we work tirelessly to try to convince others to join us? This is what I am advocating we attempt to figure out how to do. The first step is recognizing that our ideological practices are not the same as delusions, and we can stop participating in many of them if we choose to do so. For example, I have taken your point (facetious or not) about Twitter, agree that it is a mostly harmful practice both socially and psychologically, and have decided to delete my Twitter account.

    There are some practices, of course, that are more difficult to stop participating in, such as capitalism, precisely because it is the mode of production which we use to survive. To stop participating in capitalism would require us to become interpolated into new discourses, create and commit to new social practices, and most importantly to be willing to give up our attachment to things that keep us trapped in an endless cycle of blindly reproducing it. The crucial point, and what makes this so difficult, is that doing so must be a collective effort. Are you interested in committing to such a collective project?

  52. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    One more general point: My emphasis on criticizing “pleasant states,” and practices that serve to better adjust us to function within the current social formation, comes from my belief that most people will not act unless they have a reason to. If I were to advocate for an individual practice, akin to meditation, its goal would be not to make things more bearable but precisely the opposite: to bring reality so clearly into view that participating in harmful ideological practices becomes more and more unpleasant, such that action becomes a necessity.

    Can we conceive of a practice that makes us more aware of and sensitive to suffering, rather than less? Rather than cultivating the capacity to remain calm and equanimous in the face of evil, what about a practice that makes us more clearly see the suffering produced by our ideologies, which is usually invisible to us?

  53. Paula Burns Avatar
    Paula Burns

    Glenn and Failed Buddhist thanks for your comments. I need to give my response some thought and will respond when I have some clarity as I don’t want to perpetuate an impasse.

  54. mitro Avatar
    mitro

    Paula:Thanks for your remarks and for making the compromised dynamics of this forum apparent to the others.

    Glenn: Thanks for engaging with that, agreeing that there is an inherent challenge here, and your reasons for taking the current approach:

    FB: I appreciate all your comments and reflections but unlike you do not believe that ‘clearly our intentions are misaligned’ and that there is no way to proceed.This is just the sort of divisive ideology that keeps us imprisoned is it not? You know the sort… ‘let’s agree to disagree or just fight to the death and see who wins’ or ‘I know the truths(s) and you don’t, and never will, so its best to leave it that’. This is not in the spirit of egalitarian dialogue and discovery but rather in the spirit of ideological dictatorship. An I’m sure you agree that at some level you are also perpetually subject to hidden ideologies and heuristics like the rest of us. Now, considering you are constantly here having discussions, unless you are some intellectually masochistic pervert, you are here to make headway in our understanding of the nature of all things from top to bottom. So I assume when it come down to the crunch we are on the same page fundamentally.

    That aside, lets discuss some of your points, albeit briefly because in most cases rambling is a smoke screen. I see reason in lot of your points. In fact, I agree with many of them and do not want to live by reactionary ideologies that allow for suffering to flourish by passively or actively perpetuating the socio-economic systems involved, although what is a reactionary ideology and who judges that is a different matter. Yes we need to discuss the ‘economic base of our social formation’ and that ‘society is in the last instance determinant of that society’s ideologies, social relations, customs’. But as humans and selves we are not just products or a reflection of society, culture and economics. In what you are arguing you seem to have conveniently excluded any ‘nature’ components to our being and have made it all ‘nurture’. Or is the ‘nurture vs nature’ paradigm just another method of mind control and brain washing imposed by the non-monster of capitalism to keep us in line? I find it hard to justify that economics is the last instance. In an early piece on this blog someone had mentioned that humans hover between the forces of internal formation and external manipulation. What do you think of this? If you don’t buy it then this whole process that you are currently involved in is nothing but a product of a very subtle conglomeration of socially evolved particularities. You have actually nothing to do with it… your freedom is lost from the onset. If on the other hand you agree, then there are two fronts to this mission. One is what you mentioned above. An unabashed no holds barred critical reflection of the systems that shape us. The other however is what you explicitly deny when you say ‘it is also possible to have intentions that are simply not possible to achieve in action, such as eliminating suffering by turning inward’. Are you sure about this? Last I heard in the scientific circles everyone is a unique pattern of affects and dispositions before they even enter the societal realm… or has the tabula rasa boat sailed again? This suggests another type of work in addition to the external work that you mention is required. If you are born an arsehole you can reduce suffering by not being an arsehole and that requires turning inward to some degree. I’m not going to say I am clear on what that process is but I am going to say that it is necessary process. I’m also going to say that the impact of the oppresive social formation in which we live has a role to play in how much of an arsehole you are (this is not directed to you by the way) and therefore makes the interanl/external work balance quite complicated endeavor. But at least it takes into account the bigger picture.. To assume that the system we live in is the sole culprit of the state of self in all of this is somewhat naive and misguided, with potentially dangerous consequences as we have seen historically.

  55. motro Avatar
    motro

    And with regards to you last post I think you should reassess your premise of ‘pleasant states’ leading to passivity. They can, but they don’t necessarily. The same goes for an more intimate and sensitive understanding of suffering and consequently a call to action. It can, but not necessarily.These are both quite sweeping statement with little thought and grounding other than whatever baggage you have bought along for the ride, and I am actually quite surprised that you, as an acutely thinking intellectual mind, have put them forward. At the same time I am very pleased that you have exposed some of your visceral humanity to the group. Welcome to the real!

  56. mitro Avatar
    mitro

    And with regards to you last post I think you should reassess your premise of ‘pleasant states’ leading to passivity. They can, but they don’t necessarily. The same goes for an more intimate and sensitive understanding of suffering and consequently a call to action. It can, but not necessarily.These are both quite sweeping statement with little thought and grounding other than whatever baggage you have bought along for the ride, and I am actually quite surprised that you, as an acutely thinking intellectual mind, have put them forward. At the same time I am very pleased that you have exposed some of your visceral humanity to the group. Welcome to the real!

  57. Craig Avatar
    Craig

    Why is everyone so scared of any thought of ending capitalism? That’s the only thing I see in many of these responses. That and the classic ‘you are not nice SNB’ dismissal. This may be too reductionist, but FB is proposing that any serious work/thinking of ending human suffering must make critique of capitalism as it’s center precisely because any materialist suffering in this world can be traced back to this economic system. Engage or get offended and leave. FB’s challenge requires awareness of ideology (beliefs in practice) and not ending ‘personal suffering’. Ending personal suffering seems to just be ‘feeling better (enlightenment?)’ and not much else according to Ingram. This is an ideological claim by the PD and ideological critique by me. Basically, if you are sitting on your ass you are not doing any sort of thinking/work to end the causes of flesh and blood suffering in this world. It’s all about MY personal suffering and ending it as such to deal with living in this cesspool of capitalism rather than changing suffering’s causal structures, forces and ideology. This is how I understand it.

    People can’t stand being called out on their beliefs in practice, ideology. Check out the other articles and comment sections and you’ll see that all of the reactionary comments to FB are nothing new. I can’t believe people can’t just come here and say, ‘hmm, this sounds interesting, tell me more.’ Rather than, ‘you’re so out of touch with reality and are just on some moral high horse’.

  58. Paula Burns Avatar
    Paula Burns

    Craig – I would just say that a different point of view doesn’t make one reactionary. It’s a pretty knee jerk reaction to immediately label another person’s thoughts as such because they’re not a mirror image of one’s own. It’s also incredibly arrogant to assume that others have not put the work in intellectually (and in their personal lives regarding the suffering of others – and that may involve all levels of activity – including the political). It’s the fact that I’m assuming that contributors here have put the work in that I’m interested and open to all that’s expressed.

    I understand how tedious it must be keep arguing a point if one’s beliefs/opinions/ world view are the end result of a lot of hard labour of thought/practice. It may be the harder the input of labour the more tenaciously we cling to our chosen argument. It’s actually very comforting to have something that we feel we can stick with absolutely. The problem with this is it can lead to a kind of thought blindness where there is an insistence that’s one’s position is correct and there can not be the slightest deviation from this.

    I just want to say Mitro’s posts align perfectly with my position (which I’m always prepared to shift in the light of compelling reasons to do so). I really hope there can be some discussion of the points he makes concerning ‘two fronts to this mission’ and as to how complicated ‘the internal/external work balance’ is.

    Briefly – regarding the above, the material world may be one important determinant but (for now) I can not adhere to the view that it is the’one’ determinant that everything boils down to. Unfortunately – this means that FB will feel it’s pointless to have a discussion with me other than to try and correct me on the error of my ways. This just makes me question is there any point in writing on?

    Whatever my argument it’s also crafted from many years of ‘work’. Just to say FB I can’t imagine anyone who doesn’t have a grasp of philosophy feeling comfortable in this milieu (how are they expected to cope when hit by argumentation that references all the major players, Althusser, Derrida, Deleuze etc, etc, etc.) We’re swimming in a particular sea here which is not to any way valorize it – but that’s a fact.

    For myself, this particular sea has become a process of mental disentanglement (how to stay a part of it yet creating a space – some distance from it – though I am of course adding to the entanglement by just being here. X buddhism became part of this process. I now feel I need to question that which is the reason for my interest in Glenn’s work).

    The hard labour (for me personally) involved in swimming in this sea? Eight years in a Philosophy Department – the latter years spent on research into Hermeneutics/Psychotherapy. Prior to research, three years post degree training to qualify as a Psychotherapist at the only institute (back in the 80’s in the UK) to add social studies/politics to its remit (I assure you I am fully aware of the impact of Capitalism on people’s lives). Six years working in the prison service setting up a counselling service and literacy classes (working with inmates who could not even read the label on a can of baked beans in a supermarket). Many hours of listening to the complex narratives of the suffering in people’s lives.
    Believe me – these exchanges/ levels of sharing bleed the heart as well as the mind !

    So maybe – just maybe – it might be that I have something of value to say that is not ‘reactionary’?

    Too many words – and that – in terms of disentanglement is today’s failing!

    Thank you for your time.

  59. Craig Avatar
    Craig

    Postulate: There is no way to truly act in accordance with the bodhisattva vows, to act with agency to address the real causes of suffering, unless one is committed to talking only about the material forces of suffering, which are determinant, in the last instance, of the realm of ideology and of “the mind.”

    FB,
    I’m a little unsure about how ‘the mind’ is being defined in this postulate. “May all beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.” This is a phrase I’ve heard many times in Buddhist circles and it really resonated with me. To me I always heard it as a call to action. It’s clear that capitalism is the major source of suffering for everyone. Without ideological awareness we just reify the current system. Metaphysics is fun, but materialism is the domain for this type of practice.

    My ongoing question is how this all happens. Is there a process for teasing these ideological assumptions out. Is it as simple as saying, ‘this theory does nothing to address the suffering under capitalism and is not helpful for us.’?

    FWIW-the postulate above does not specifically say that materialism is the only aspect of the bodhisattva vows that one must focus on. It is the one we’re talking about here. I still wonder why folks are so scared of any discussion of ending capitalism when it clearly is a source of untold suffering for many.

  60. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Thank you for your comment, Paula.

    You say: “I would just say that a different point of view doesn’t make one reactionary.”

    Craig seems to me to be saying that certain particular views on this comment thread are “reactionary,” not disagreement per se. I would add to his point that more often than not, the reactionary stance taken on this blog commentariat is implicit and even unintentional, rather than explicit and intentional. More on that point right below.

    You say: “Briefly—regarding the above, the material world may be one important determinant but (for now) I can not adhere to the view that it is the’one’ determinant that everything boils down to. Unfortunately—this means that FB will feel it’s pointless to have a discussion with me other than to try and correct me on the error of my ways. This just makes me question is there any point in writing on?”

    I understand the larger purpose of FB’s project in this essay to be “to expose the presence of ideology where it is not conscious, and to come to some social understanding, through dialogue, of the function of our ideologies.” It is not necessary to accept that everything can be boiled down to “one determinant.” But would you agree that (i) understanding how x-buddhism functions ideologically necessarily (ii) leads us to its “social function”? If so, we have landed on “the material.” Exploring this terrain of FB’s argument is interesting and valuable enough. We don’t need wholesale agreement about the details, do we?

    Something is happening in American conversations about Buddhism. We can call it “the political turn.” That is, it has become impossible to talk responsibly about “The Dharma” without taking into account the “social” as FB discusses it. Of course the older way of talking about Buddhism (as primarily operating on an individualized sphere of consciousness, etc.) is still happening. But it is sounding not only outdated, but dangerous. Why dangerous? If you (abstract “you”) believe that capitalism is fine, than no need to read on: no danger. If you believe that its basic financial structure and systems of subjectivity contribute in significant ways to massive financial inequality, poverty, entrenched patriarchy and misogyny, institutional racism and bigotry, authoritarianism, environmental degradation, international strife and warfare, then the x-buddhist rhetoric of “the inner life,” takes on a darker hue. It begins to look like a means of biopolitics, as, that is, one of many current ways of creating a subject acquiescent to the larger social forces swirling around it. A study of Buddhist history, in fact, reveals that this is a predictable phenomenon. “Zen” presents itself as a means to liberation from the social, among other things. Yet, it is saturated with the social: with the medieval Japanese mores, political strife, relational norms, economics, etc., that fashioned it. Zen values are absorbed in turn by the social sphere. How could it possibly exert a liberating influence? Thai Theravada is permeated by the deep Southeast Asian deference to monarchs, by cultural misogyny, bigotry toward darker-skinned Thais, and all the rest. How can it help free people from those very ills? (One of the arguments of non-buddhism is that the “liberatory” aspects of x-buddhism can be recovered, but at the cost of irreparable damage to Buddhist sufficiency.)

    FB is arguing, I think, that understanding the suffering in our midst requires an understanding of the larger social-material matrix within which it occurs. It is undeniable that neoliberal capitalism is the order of the day in the West. So, at a minimum, we have to understand that if not how, capitalism is able to function as a socioeconomic program; and we cannot do that, as a British economist puts it “ without addressing how [neoliberalism] problematizes human subjectivity. It is the interpretive capacities through which human beings reflect upon the nature of their world, their relations with themselves, each other, and their environments that are seen as being of crucial issue for the legitimization of neoliberal practices of government.”

    The common question for us to explore is “how does x-buddhism, Pragmatic Dharma, Mindfulness, Zen, whatever, problematize human subjectivity? (One way of doing so is not to discuss it at all explicitly, and to simply assume some socially- and materially-transcendent version of self or consciousness.)

    You say: “So maybe – just maybe – it might be that I have something of value to say that is not ‘reactionary’?”

    FB and Craig can correct me if I am mistaken, but in the present context “reactionary” means arguing for the prior, pre-political-turn, x-buddhist status quo that I referred to above—the view that the root of suffering is in the individual’s consciousness, etc., and that it can be ameliorated with “interior” practices like meditation, Mindfulness, contemplation, etc. etc. But it is a good question: what do we mean by “reactionary” here?

    You say: “Too many words – and that – in terms of disentanglement is today’s failing!”

    One of the main reasons that we have a Wild West policy for commenting is precisely the conviction that language—thinking, dialogue, discourse, debate, argumentation, writing, reflection—is the way to “disentanglement.” FB actually makes this point several times in this thread. See his response to geovock’s first comment, for example. So, I think we have a lot to discuss still. But that requires more words! Or as some great Daoist master once said: “Take me to a woman who is done with language. I’d like to have a word with her.”

  61. Paul Brennan Avatar

    This position shares a lot of common theoretical ground with the radical critique of psychotherapy (or most psychotherapy). And it has the same problem for me as a psychotherapist. Based on admittedly imperfect experience and technical knowledge it simply doesn’t seem to be the case in practice that psychotherapy encourages or forces the subject to withdraw from social engagement, social relations or “the world”. If anything it seems as though the opposite is the case. And I wonder how this applies to pragmatic buddhism – is it actually the case that people like Ingram himself (or any of the people who have followed his lead to the ends he describes) have become withdrawn from the social world as a result of arhatship? I have my doubts.

  62. Craig Avatar
    Craig

    “Reactionary” was probably a poor choice of word. Folks seem to want to engage in some sort of ‘balanced view’ discussion when FB clearly is not calling for that, but interested in arguing his main point. I would call myself a former ‘reactionary’ on this site as I took personal offense at many of the articles and comments. For some reason I kept coming back and worked on not flinching, but taking critique to it’s never ending end. Now it’s fun. My hunch is that FB is not interested in starting at the beginning, but at the point he is now in thinking through all of this material.

  63. Paula Burns Avatar
    Paula Burns

    “Reactionary” was probably a poor choice of word. Folks seem to want to engage in some sort of ‘balanced view’ discussion when FB clearly is not calling for that, but interested in arguing his main point. I would call myself a former ‘reactionary’ on this site as I took personal offense at many of the articles and comments. For some reason I kept coming back and worked on not flinching, but taking critique to it’s never ending end. Now it’s fun. My hunch is that FB is not interested in starting at the beginning, but at the point he is now in thinking through all of this material.

    Thanks Craig. I’m sure I’ll get to the ‘fun’ bit eventually 🙂 I probably come over as more offended than I am – just a bit frustrated really.

    And thanks for the clarification Glenn. I am not in disagreement – but obviously still plenty of buts, ifs and questions.
    Won’t be leaving the party any time soon but time to sit in the corner with a drink and quietly observe.

    Cheers!

  64. Craig Avatar
    Craig

    Paula, I know the frustration. I’m still wrapping my head around ideology, how we can be aware of it and how dangerous it can be. I get more into that in my response to FB above. I’d also say that much of the critique of x-buddhism here is pointed toward the teachers that claim enlightenment or some access to ancient teachings, usually for an expensive price. Ingram does not charge though. Listening to him talk he seemed to have many assumptions and much awareness of ideology. The fun part (maybe frustrating) is learning how to identify this and explain it. One question I considered was what ideology was behind Ingram’s discussion of sensory experience. He’s assuming everyone understands what he is saying by this, but is there more at work here? Is there a specific ideology behind ‘basic awareness of sensory experience’? What is experience in this case? If enlightenment is well-being, then what does well-being mean? I can get some clues by looking at this through a certain lens that is critical of capitalism. Like I said, I’m still working on this.

  65. paulabrennan2015 Avatar

    It’s interesting that Daniel Ingram (whom I don’t know at all) is apparently a practicing ER physician, post-arhatship, and so is specifically engaged on a daily basis with the material determinants of human suffering. Would we regard this a kind of counter-illustration of the critique given here? And if not, then what would be?

  66. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Mitro:

    It is not “divisive” ideology that keeps us imprisoned. What keeps us imprisoned is our attachment to ideologies that reproduce an exploitative mode of production. So when I insist that the economic should be the focus of any social engagement, and refuse to cede on that insistence, I am doing so at the cost of potentially being divisive to some, but in the hope that others will be able to see through such illusions as “egalitarian dialogue,” as if everyone opinions are equally valid and the truth must never be insisted on to avoid oppressing the deluded with reality.

    You are correct that I am here to “make headway in our understanding of the nature of all things” (although I also somewhat of an intellectually masochistic pervert; these are not mutually exclusive), which is precisely why I refuse to cede the truth in the service of ceding to people’s delusions.

    One delusion in particular is the eternal “nature/nurture” rhetoric that keeps us from thinking clearly about the kind of creatures that we are. We are natural creatures, so of course we have natural dispositions, such as the drive to survive and reproduce, to name just two (there are some others, as I think Tom Pepper convincingly argues in his article on human nature). This is too much to get into, but I want to point out that when you speak of the duality between “internal formation and external manipulation,” you are falling prey to precisely the error in thinking that we need to abandon. There is no formation that happens outside of the social, removed from the collective productive action of society (a few minutes of research on children deprived of language and social interaction proves this point quite clearly). Nor should we make the mistake of conceiving of the social as external “manipulation.” Ideology is not manipulation nor illusion. It is belief-in-practice (and we can choose which one to participate in). This means that when we are being formed by the ideological practices we participate in, we are not being “manipulated” in any way, and this process is not an interference or separation from our “true self” (meaning a self that is pre-social, or extra-social). I get that this is a difficult and unsettling possibility to consider, because it means that we are helplessly trapped in this world unless we collectively liberate ourselves by creating new kinds of collective practices. It is unsettling, yes, and this is why people are so terrified of focusing the conversation on economics.

    “. . . this whole process that you are currently involved in is nothing but a product of a very subtle conglomeration of socially evolved particularities. You have actually nothing to do with it… your freedom is lost from the onset.”

    I agree with the first part of that statement, but not the second.

    Yes, this process is a social one. Is that not completely obvious to you? What part of this exchange is not social? Can you name one element?

    With respect to your second statement, you are making the biggest error of all, by thinking that this means that I “have actually nothing to do with it,” and that my “freedom is lost from the outset”. It is precisely the fact that my mind is a social phenomenon that means that I have everything to do with the kinds of social practices I engage with, including our dialogue here. Furthermore, it is precisely because my mind is a social phenomenon that freedom and agency is possible. It is only the social symbolic that makes agency possible. Have you ever met an ant with agency, or a possum? Agency is something that is developed collectively, not in isolation. There is no such thing as individual freedom. Again, refer to the literature on children who never had access to the social symbolic. Do they seem particularly free to you, having developed only “internally?”

  67. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Craig:

    It seems that “any materialist suffering in this world can be traced back to this economic system” is just too unsettling a notion to accept for so many. This thread, along with many other previous ones as you point out, is filled with the pathetic and terrified flailing of people who are too afraid to accept that we must actually change our ideological practices in order to address suffering, rather than simply “train” ourselves to be fine going on as normal, or to be able to gradually change things when it is convenient for us to do so without actually giving up anything substantial. They are simply unwilling to consider a complete transformation, to really “let go” of their current self as x-buddhism ostensibly argues for.

    Your question of how all of this happens is a great one, that is why I am trying to figure out as well. Do you have any ideas? I think, to start, that it can only happen through the commitment to getting more people to transition into a “faithful subject,” as Tom Pepper calls it, with respect to anatman as it has been developed and argued for on this blog and in Glenn’s book.

    It’s not easy, as these exchanges demonstrate. People will cling to all manner of absurdities to avoid taking responsibility for their ideologies. The unfortunate implication of what we are arguing for is that people like Mitro and others in this thread will actually have to change some of their social practices in order to be able to see through the delusions. This is why most “dialogue” is probably a farce, and I am becoming increasingly aware of the fact that no substantial change in thinking can occur without a parallel change in material practices. Of course, most people are not willing to change their social practices because they are not capable of thinking clearly enough to understand the importance of doing so. It’s a real catch-22.

  68. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Paula:

    Since Mitro’s position “align[s] perfectly” with your own, consider my response above to be directed as you as well. A few more points, particularly in reaction to your comment:

    As I stated earlier, there is no requirement of having a good grasp of philosophy in order to think clearly. (In many cases, in fact, I have found that training in what is typically referred to as philosophy is one of the biggest impediments to thinking clearly.) I never mentioned any “major players” of philosophy such as Derrida or Deleuze, although I know that they appear with frequency elsewhere on the blog. I did mention Althusser, who in my opinion is a clear enough writer that most of his work can be read with no prior philosophical training. That is not to say that reading his work does not require hard work. It requires, however, the hard work of being open to the possibility that one may have been living one’s entire life without an awareness of what they were actually doing on a bigger, collective level—which is opposed to the “work” done in most philosophy departments of reproducing the dominant ideology.

    This hard work, for one, involves moving past the illusion that there is any such thing as “mental disentanglement.” You are not an atomistic entity entangled in anything. You are part of a collective mind, and you need to take responsibility for that.

    I do not doubt that you have valuable things to say. Believe it or not, I’ve found your comments helpful. But we need to be able to agree on one non-negotiable postulate, which is the rejection of transcendence. When denying that the material world is determinant, you are advocating an idealist position. Are you able to see how this is the case? I can take the time to try to explain it, but I don’t want to waste my time unless you are really interested in abandoning idealism.

  69. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Paul:

    I spent thirteen years as a “patient” across dozens of different psychotherapists and psychiatrists. You are at least right about one thing. None of them ever encouraged me to “withdraw from social engagement, social relations or ‘the world’.”

    That is not the issue—or rather, that is precisely the issue. The function of psychotherapy is not to force the subject to withdraw, but to force them to continue engaging in the harmful ideological practices that produced their “illness.” Psychotherapy does this by convincing victims of a social sickness that the world is mostly fine, and it is their individual souls who are sick. Never mind the fact that the evidence for the “gold standards” of psychotherapy “models” and “approaches” is abysmal, and that psychiatric medications are essentially as effective as placebos.

    To be sure, it has certainly been very ideologically informative for me to spend more than half my life following the advice of “experts” such as yourself without coming any closer to understanding the causes of my “issues,” only to do so with just a few months of hard ideological work. It’s given me a uniquely sharp and informed understanding of just how the ideology of psychotherapy actually functions.

    I don’t expect you will be able to grasp this, since you are a psychotherapist yourself, and must therefore have been properly interpolated into the pseudo-scientific ideology of clinical psychology. I have tried explaining this to psychologists in the past, none of which were capable of grasping their own ideology. Perhaps, during your next appointment with a patient, pay close attention (be “mindful”) of the kinds of things you are saying to them. Importantly, take care not to forget just what this world is that you are encouraging them to adapt to.

  70. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    I think I need to make one more general point, concerning my use of the term ideology, as the only way I can attribute the many errors in this thread to anything other than intellectual disability is to assume that people are misunderstanding what I mean by ideology. I am using the word ideology as it has always been used on this blog by Tom Pepper, in the Althusserian sense, as belief-in-practice. When I say ideology, I don’t mean “illusion” or “opinion.” Ideology consists of both beliefs and of material practices (which are inseparable). For example, capitalist ideology is not an “illusion” or an “opinion.” It consists of beliefs (e.g. in the Protestant work ethic, that we are atomistic minds, etc) and of practices (e.g. a “career,” shopping at the grocery store, etc).

    In this sense, we are all participants in capitalist ideology. We must be, because capitalism is the dominant mode of production and hence virtually impossible to escape without society as a whole moving to a different mode of production. Given the capitalist mode of production, we are forced to have certain beliefs and practices which define our participation in it. Again, it is not an illusion or an opinion, but a belief-in-practice. Similarly, my ideology of challenging capitalism (one can hold many different contradictory ideologies) is not an “illusion” or an “opinion.” It is a belief-in-practice (the belief of which, for example, includes that people’s labour power should not be exploited for the benefit of the few; the practice of which, for example, consists of engaging in interactions such as this one, where I attempt to point out to others the errors and delusions that keep them attached to capitalism as an ideology).

    So it is not the case that I have transcended capitalist ideology and am now living in some transcendent realm of truth. If this were the case, I would have no reason to engage in this discussion, and could just remain in a state of bliss on my own, like Ingram and other x-buddhists. Rather, what I have done is realized that since this ideology of mine (ours) is, like all ideologies, one that functions as and within a system of production, any effort to change that system of production must be collective. This is the fundamental problem. I cannot stop participating in capitalist ideology alone. This is why I am attempting to find others who are willing to commit to such a project with me, who will in turn convince others.

    There is nothing that stops us from replacing capitalism with a different ideology, other than the delusions that make us believe that we cannot do it, either because of a delusional belief that “human nature” being capitalist (an absurd belief, since capitalism has not been around for most of human history), or because of a belief that we can change our individual selves without changing our collective ideologies. These are what I mean by delusions, and while ideologies are not delusions in themselves, it is only delusion that prevents people from realizing that (a) our ideologies (as beliefs-in-practice) determine our subjectivity, and (b) ideologies are collective, and thus our subjectivity is collective.

    Does this make sense to anyone, or clear anything up?

  71. Mitro Avatar
    Mitro

    FB: Thank you, thank you, thank you! I was actually going to change my tact based on your last comment to Craig, Paula and myself because I felt that it was just propagating the snarling and teeth bearing that was sneaking into the discussion, an this of course was detracting from all of our original intentions and pursuits by engaging on this blog. I was going to take the tone of not presenting my own rebuttals but instead asking some simple burning questions that would hopefully clarify some things for me. Lo and behold, you have answered most of them in this unprecedented and unexpected post. I appreciate that and funnily enough I have zero issues with what you are saying. I agree completely, understanding at the same time that the collective practices, processes and actions required for change need development.

    Now, in saying that, there are some other queries i have but will endeavor to tackle them one by one and slowly.

    My first one revolves around your following comments:

    “It is precisely the fact that my mind is a social phenomenon that means that I have everything to do with the kinds of social practices I engage with, including our dialogue here. Furthermore, it is precisely because my mind is a social phenomenon that freedom and agency is possible. It is only the social symbolic that makes agency possible.”

    My questions is simple. If my mind is completely a social formation other than the experience of very primordial affects and desires (which I am assuming reconfigure to a degree based on social forces), then where or what is the causal agent that decides to change things, or is there no causal agent but just a mutating process that veers off the dominant path?

    I will leave it there and wait for your thoughts (or references if you prefer) on this matter. I also hope we can continue with more constructive talk.

  72. sourfoot Avatar
    sourfoot

    I won’t be joining you, sorry.

    As I see it, it seems like you have swapped some kind of x-buddhism for some marxism and tom-pepperism – “I can see truth as it really is” through some vipassana goggles for “I can see truth as it really is” through marxism. This clearly has some functions and benefits to you, though can have some negative consequences, and pointing that out motivated me getting involved in this thread. I haven’t spent much time around marxists but through the lens of SNB I can start to see how some of its machinery operates (some shared with Buddhism, some different) and how it has been so successful as a thought system, and it’s personally interesting to me in how it it expresses itself individually, as well as how it might challenge my own ideas.

    But in terms of the “where do we go from here” as subjects of 21st-century liberalism I see it as a dead-end.

    Sorry if this sounds patronising but you are obviously super-smart and a great writer. You will have your own ideas on how to go about this, but I was sort of sad to hear about you deleting twitter, as these avenues seem where a 21st century “meta modern” subject “going beyond” might be most fruitful. For example, in trying to understand some of the ideas in your writing I had to do some digging up on marxism. And who has time for reading these days, so I found this Contrapoint’s fantastic “What’s wrong with Capitalism” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJW4-cOZt8A . It has a million plus views, which will only get larger over time. Of course, each view boosting google’s profits, and yet, from tiny seeds…

    Thanks for engaging with this dialogue with me.

  73. Paula Burns Avatar
    Paula Burns

    FB wrote ‘That is not the issue—or rather, that is precisely the issue. The function of psychotherapy is not to force the subject to withdraw, but to force them to continue engaging in the harmful ideological practices that produced their “illness.” Psychotherapy does this by convincing victims of a social sickness that the world is mostly fine, and it is their individual souls who are sick. Never mind the fact that the evidence for the “gold standards” of psychotherapy “models” and “approaches” is abysmal, and that psychiatric medications are essentially as effective as placebos.’

    Just to say that there has always been a radical movement within psychotherapy to mitigate and fight against such coercive control. I am genuinely sorry that you have experienced this attempt at coercive manipulation yourself (I also have had experience of this). There is a growing movement within the profession galvanized by a ‘kick back’ from counsellors/therapists who do not want to be forced to push their clients through some procedure of ‘thought control’ in the guise of cognitive behaviour therapy and mindfulness programmes.

    I write this – mainly to point out yet again – that generalisations lead to illogical conclusions that get presented as truisms. It is not necessary to do this to make a perfectly valid point. The fact that some modalities of psychotherapy are used as a form of system/state control is a premise that does not result in the firm conclusion of the defining function of psychotherapy as you present.

    FB ‘I do not doubt that you have valuable things to say. Believe it or not, I’ve found your comments helpful. But we need to be able to agree on one non-negotiable postulate, which is the rejection of transcendence. When denying that the material world is determinant, you are advocating an idealist position. Are you able to see how this is the case? I can take the time to try to explain it, but I don’t want to waste my time unless you are really interested in abandoning idealism.’

    I thank you for the offer but just by being here and reading the comments I am gaining a sense of the argument. In view of the fact that i would position myself at a point of uncertainty I’m not sure I am advocating an idealist position. Transcendence has been a big issue for me (one that I kept pushing down and will possibly lead in time to my being ‘a failed buddhist’ too) but the process of disenchantment for me is not likely to be one of having my ‘delusion’ blasted out of me by tight argumentation.

    For now – I think I need to withdraw from entering the discussion here. I will still be reading/thinking/ reflecting.

    Thanks.

  74. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    sourfoot. You say: “I won’t be joining you, sorry.” I assume that this statement is directed toward FB and his most recent comment, correct? If, so, and perhaps even if not, it gives me an opportunity to clarify a basic point about the thing you say you’re not joining. You have joined him/us already, and indeed in the only way possible: through material engagement. Ideological subscription is not a requirement to join. In fact, what would that in and of itself even mean unless it takes some form of practice in the world?

    The project that is speculative non-buddhism is one of material practice. This may take many forms. But one feature that is non-negotiable is the cancellation of the warrant of sufficiency that is inscribed in any given unitary system of thought. Once the principle of sufficient x is disabled, two trajectories appear: critique (or deconstruction, loosely defined) and redescription (or buddhofiction). The first should be self-explanatory. The second requires a supplement. (For, recall that x-system has been rendered insufficient.) Superpositioning the collision between the supplement and the x is a third. (This process should not be understood dialectically.) In the current essay, FB has collided Pragmatic Dharma with material from Marxism. Something has appeared through that process that subsumes critique into a nascent redescription, including postulates for further ideological development, or, that is to say, for further practice-in-the-world-with-belief.

    It should be obvious that non-buddhism is not wedded to Marxism or any other x-system. It is rather precisely a theory of the x together with its usage. This is what we are up to here.

    So, you have already joined us. Further possibilities for “membership” might include: writing a critique of FB’s position here using x-buddhist materials; writing an essay exploring the value of capitalism by colliding it with some x-buddhist doctrine; attending an Incite Seminar; helping with any of the several activities that Incite Seminars participants engage in (e.g., anti-ICE disruption; university student group political formation; GED education; prison education); attending an online Trash Community gathering; starting a practice group; disagreeing in the comment section, etc., etc. Think of “to join” as a carpentry metaphor:

    “Wood joinery is one of the most basic concepts in woodworking. If we didn’t have the ability to join two pieces of wood together in a solid fashion, all woodworking pieces would be sculptures, carved out of a single piece of wood. However, with the many varied types of wood joinery, a woodworker has a number of different joints in his arsenal from which to choose, based on the project. If you master these wood joinery concepts, you’ll be well on your way to becoming a very accomplished woodworker.”

  75. Craig Avatar
    Craig

    Mitro said:
    “…where or what is the causal agent that decides to change things, or is there no causal agent but just a mutating process that veers off the dominant path?”

    This a question I grapple with as well. I think part of the answer is that we need to work toward ideological awareness and critique as part of our everyday lives in discursive conversation. Like a past time. Similar to what we are doing here. The other part is that our current capitalist ideology does not allow for agents of change. We’re all caught up in capitalism, are aware of that, have some ideas what might be better, but can’t seem act. I personally am a bad capitalist subject as I suspect most of us here are. I don’t fit anywhere and am literally unable to do so without a ton of energy. Depression, anxiety, addiction; these are bad capitalist subjects. We don’t fit. So what to do? Learn about ideology like we are trying to do here.

    FB-
    I wish there was some sort of process for teasing out ideology. Sometimes it’s pretty clear. Other times it’s very subtle. My belief’s in practice are mostly unquestioned, but I’m working on it. Incidentally, I’ve re-read that full strength anatman piece and still don’t quite see its implications. Given anatman and social mind can an individual be an agent? I know that is kind a question you are asking. Since change must happen collectively we need to get others on board.

  76. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    There’s a brilliant economic sociology book about fancy finance math called “An engine, not a camera” by Donald MacKenzie that seems highly relevant to this discussion (https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/134474.An_Engine_Not_a_Camera).

    I don’t see pitting capitalism and socialism against each other as being very helpful in trying to move forwards from the mess we’re in. Could society and capital be fundamental aspects of material interaction? Could arguing one for the other blind us as observers from recognizing the sort of fluid interactiveness that those conceptions seem to emerge from?

    Hopefully I can find time later to write more

  77. sourfoot Avatar
    sourfoot

    Glenn, in terms of joining, it was in specific response to Chaim’s calls for his quest on his specific terms
    I guess I haven’t (yet) gotten to logical conclusion of x-buddhist critique > collective action, or even, just, action
    Perhaps this a reflection of my choices, but the examined or non-examined ends of pragmatic dharma seem very rational. In the face of our circumstances (within a neoliberal world etc…), and the finiteness of human life, better choices are not obvious. This reflects on my own circumstances. I can’t embrace it, I can escape it. So, what’s left? Hopelessness, ironic distance, apathy, selfishness and so on. This seems the default around my parts, and it’s easy enough to join in.

    Part of me feels that engaging here (or even, “this)” is an escape from the “real”, like a form of “spiritual bypassing” in the way Buddhism functions as an escape from the real, in that takes me away from the the circumstances of my life, such as family, friends, a career. My x-buddhist claim to identity earlier was a flourish. Buddhism is pretty close to death for me. You helped put the nails in the coffin, along with the self-evident abundant narcissism of x-buddhist teachers. I am anonymous here partly because of my flirtation with Buddhism feels embarrassing now. I am sure I am not alone with that. And I don’t really feel I have enough sunk costs invested to salvage anything from its beating heart, maybe.
    And yet, whatever attracted me to it hasn’t been extinguished. A promise of an unflinching encounter with the conditions of our lives: death, no-self, causes and conditions, the romanticism of a full spectrum encounter with emotions and the razor’s edge of joy/despair, where that leads, and sharing that somehow with “sangha”. But imagine my disappointment.

    Unflinching is hard; I don’t think the human psyche is built for it, along with “embracing the suffering” of the OP. Embracing the ruin seems like a descent to nihilism. So, where does that lead? Maybe community (being human) is the only way out?! I have engaged in something like the SNB “project” in my own ways before now, but it’s a lonely old game. But community is hard, of course, both off and online.

    You mention incite and trash. This seems fantastic, but I can’t see anything planned online. I have romanticised every now again about starting a practice group, but hard to do alone, though maybe opportunities might jump out of the woodwork, who knows. I have 70% written an essay kinda in response to all this, maybe it would fit with your blog, though spending time on this is taking me away from earning my career points. Hmm.

  78. Craig Avatar
    Craig

    Sourfoot-
    I’d love to read your piece.

  79. Paul Brennan Avatar

    Chaim: “I don’t expect you will be able to grasp this, since you are a psychotherapist yourself, and must therefore have been properly interpolated into the pseudo-scientific ideology of clinical psychology.” – I don’t believe there is any such “must”. There are entire psychotherapies that are coming from a pretty similar critical position to your own as far I can see (e.g. the work of Michael White in narrative therapy). I do wonder how you can claim knowledge of the history of my interpellation (and what I can/cannot grasp as a result) based on little more than the word “psychotherapist”!

  80. Mitro Avatar
    Mitro

    FB: There is no need to address my question as I have acquired the explanations I was after. I will assume that they are in line with what you would have argued.

    To all the others that were interested in the same question, here is a link to an article worthy of reading and reflecting upon.

    João Leonardo Medeiros, Marx and the Ontology of Social Being

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://marxismocritico.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/medeiros_joao-ontology_and_epistemology_in_marx.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj1wK7SqZzjAhWKaCsKHbmEDtoQFjAIegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0PEIzKrmrnMOmFmuy4-n3s&cshid=1562280354100

  81. Mitro Avatar
    Mitro

    For FB and any stragglers left haunting this post, as well as those who have been embittered by their sojourns here I am adding one final link to bring more context to the discussion. The Rethinking Marxism journal (which could just as easily have been named Speculative Non-Marxism) has an entire edition from 2016 dedicated to the many shortcomings and problems of Marxist philosophy when dealing with religious and spiritual matters, including the convenient amnesia of the social forces in its historical development and a possible denial of its own esoteric nuances…. plus more! This is the editors introduction and summary to the dilemmas faced and the articles published.

    Happy reading.

    http://rethinkingmarxism.org/editor-intro/28-3-4-intro.html

  82. Paula Burns Avatar
    Paula Burns

    Thanks Mitro – read the other link too. Slowly writing an essay now putting some thoughts together.

  83. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    Response to Failed Buddhist/Chaim Widger and his Pragmatic Dharma and Unexamined “Ends”, by Daniel M. Ingram

    DMI: While not quite a full point-by-point, it is long, so perhaps you will at least appreciate that I took your ideas and considered them each carefully. I take delight in the literary freedom the social mores of this SNB site allow, and, when in Rome, I have done as the Romans do.

    FB: I want to take a brief detour before beginning, to first address what appears to be a large objection leveled by Daniel against criticisms of pragmatic dharma. In his response to parlêtre, Daniel takes great pains to display his frustration at what he perceives to be a tendency of critics to unify, against the better wishes of its proponents, the ideology of pragmatic dharma which is, in fact, according to him, varied and broad.

    DMI: I say this because it is that way. The number of practices, frameworks, ideologies, techniques, dogmas, etc. that even my closest circle of friends in the world of “Pragmatic Dharma” engage with and utilize is extremely large, and much of it is not “Buddhist”. Your merely demonstrate your ignorance by stating otherwise.

    FB: I certainly understand the frustration of having a broadly defined movement be addressed under narrowly defined parameters… However, I think the case of pragmatic dharma is different, and this difference lies in the ways Daniel himself would fancy to categorize the movement.
    The problem is this: If you define a movement loosely enough, and broadly enough, it becomes so indefinable as to be meaningless.

    DMI: Yet, it is not meaningless, and the definition, while broad, is applicable and accurate. You can define a spirit that way, an ethos, and that is what it is. That you patently refuse to see that makes discussion taxing. I am guessing you would advocate for ideals such as “Freedom” perhaps? How broadly would you define “Freedom”, and would that definition make the concept meaningless to you? If so, that is true intellectual poverty.

    FB: What does it mean for a movement to be a “broad movement that truly wishes to transcend its own limits, whatever those might be, to truly get to the dream of what works for the reader and practitioner, using whatever concepts, means, techniques, methods, social interactions, practices, and other resources to achieve those ends”? Defined in this way, pragmatic dharma ends up meaning nothing at all.

    DMI: No. It means what it says, and it is explicitly an antithesis to much of what ironically this site also rails against, which is dogmatic, narrow, ineffective, limiting, cultish, bullshit, impractical, unexamined dharma. It explains that by way of not only attitude but explicitly in its framing of a its own historical context, a rebellion against a ton of Boomer/Beat crap dharma. How odd that you seem to have such a fixed delusion that you can’t see this. That you can’t see that as a valid, explicit meaning is straightforwardly and demonstrably your own blindness and I think represents your clinging in the ordinary sense to a stubborn fixed position as a rebel against it regardless of evidence, sense, logic, rhetoric, truth, etc.

    FB: “Pragmatic” here ends up being synonymous simply with some kind of limitless relativism, in which anything goes in terms of concepts, theories, and techniques, as long as they serve to “achieve” the unquestioned “ends” which pragmatic dharma dogmatically prescribes namely, personal well-being.

    DMI: Pragmatic Dharma prescribes nothing explicitly, but it provides ways to achieve certain ends if people wish for those. As it says in my book in the introduction, if you are not into those things, go find something else. I quote from the beginning of the book, “It is the unrestrained voice of one from a generation whose radicals wore spikes and combat boots rather than beads and sandals; listened to the Sex Pistols rather than the Moody Blues, wouldn’t know a Beat poet or early ’60s dharma bum from a hole in the ground, and thought the hippies were pretty friggin’ naive, not that we don’t owe them a whole lot. It is also the unrestrained voice of one whose practice has been dedicated to complete and unexcelled mastery of the traditional and hardcore stages of the path rather than some sort of vapid New Age fluff or pop psychological head-trip. If that ain’t you, consider reading something else.”

    Translating, as apparently that is too opaque for you to get: If you are not into this stuff, go do something else. Get over it. Not your thing: cool. Doesn’t have to be your thing. However, you seem oddly unable to get over it not being your thing, and, appear fixated on it being your anti-thing. That’s pretty weird. Might talk with someone about that. For example, and making it extremely concrete to make the point to just in case it takes that: Wearing fur hand muffs is not my thing, and I think it is bad for animals, but do I spend all my time on forums railing against fur hand muffs and people who like fur hand muffs? No. Are fur hand muffs your thing? If not, do you spend lots of time railing against fur hand muffs on online forums? If not, why not? Get it?

    Said another way, given your purported ideologies and views, is x-Buddhism truly the worst thing in the world, the thing most worthy of criticism, or perhaps could one find juicier targets, such as Exxon, Haliburton, Goldman Sachs, Fascist parties, or whatever? Is this really the best use of your time, energy, and talents? If so, why? If not, then why bother? I must say, I honestly don’t get it.

    Do you know that this morning I got yet another of literally hundreds of emails written by someone who claimed I saved their life with some freely-available, practical maps for navigating in some crazy head spaces they had gotten into? I took about two hours to respond to his very long email this morning, and do so freely, not even accepting donations, as I do with all such emails, and he was very grateful. Are you really so opposed to that sort of thing? If so, I think that’s sick and twisted, morally reprehensible, and worthy of critical examination to understand why you would oppose this. You do your case no favors at all, and those who would see you as doing something useful by attacking this freely given good work that really does help people I view in the same critical way. You need help, my friend, but clearly I am not the person to lend it to you, so seek it elsewhere, someplace you feel safe, some place whose ideals you agree with, somewhere appropriate for your particular clinical presentation, and best wishes getting that help.

    Do you know what I tell people when they want to give me dana? I tell them to give it to Doctors without Borders, Smile Train, or some similar organization, and, delightfully, some of them really do that. That you criticize me and the work I do and the good that comes from it is gross, despicable, cowardly, foolish, and tragic. You are actively trying to harm the people you pretend to care about but would apparently readily sacrifice on the altar of your anger, rage, and the blind faith you put in your idealism.

    It is interesting that the SNB site and those on it are so good at looking critically out but have a really hard time looking critically in and at the broader effects of the harm they do. It is not that some criticisms they level aren’t useful in certain cases, and there is the potential for real good to be done, but it is like a fire, hard to stop once it gets going, and you apparently don’t know how to focus or channel that fire to keep from burning targets that really shouldn’t have been burned. This is the sort of logic used to criticize, say, napalm and cluster bombs.

    Curiously, a professor that my father had in college invented napalm, and I present this article about it: https://sites.google.com/site/warnapalm/article-the-man-who-invented-napalm

    SNB has similarities to Dow Chemical in their attitude to the consequences of their vitriol and off-base, distorted critiques, fires that rarely burn their actual McMindful targets, but often cause significant collateral damage among innocents. Curious, isn’t it, that you should find yourself paradigmatically in some odd alignment with such as the Dow Chemical, isn’t it? Is that really the side of history you wish to be on?

    FB: … the unquestioned “end” toward which the infinite relativism of “concepts, means, techniques, methods, social interactions, practices, and other resources” are to be employed. Again, to be explicit, this “end” is pretty much invariably some form of an ability to passively accept whatever “sensate experience” arises.

    DMI: Appreciate my restraint and lack of quotes at this point, if you are able. Three Trainings: one vast, about all the ways we work to make this world a better place and mitigate the ordinary suffering bound up in having been born and dying, second about attaining to deep states which are temporary and not a permanent solution, and third attaining to an elimination of a form of suffering we actually can eliminate, one that doesn’t at all prevent the ordinary forms of suffering related to having been born. The notion that this ER doctor or anyone actually doing these merely “passively accepts” whatever arises is ludicrous. You create a cartoon of a stylized meditator that only exists in your imagination.

    FB: First, I want to question the desirability of this “end.” Second, I want to argue why an investigation of the social will always be more important that a solipictic investigation of “sensate experience.”

    DMI: First, there is no obvious end to training in Morality, meaning mitigating ordinary suffering through ordinary means, as stated again and again in my works. Second, the book doesn’t posit that one training is more important than the others, or that one type of work is more important anywhere. It merely points out that the third training can actually do something that does have an end, meaning there is a stable mode of perception that can be attained, but explicitly states that all the rest of the muck of life still has to be dealt with, albeit with a perceptual upgrade in place. This is verifiable by doing the experiment.

    FB: Postulate: Any critique of x-buddhism must be ideological.
    My intention is to locate the real causes of suffering for the vast majority of human beings, and figure out the mechanisms by which these causes can be eradicated. Now, what’s yours?

    DMI: Mine is similar, which is why I spent thousands more hours working as an ER doctor really helping people with real, flesh-and-blood suffering than I ever spent meditating, and, if you add in all the other practical day-to-day ordinary ways I worked to remove what ordinary suffering I could for family, friends, community, and myself, then that adds thousands of more hours. We demonstrate our priorities by our actions. Are you sure we are on different pages in this regard.

    Postulate: An ideological critique of x-buddhism must be rooted in the material basis of ideology.
    X-buddhists think that these causes are in the last instance determined by the mind.

    DMI: No, at least in my case, which you discuss here. Your apparent inability to hear this leads me to believe that you value your fixed position rather more than you value listening to those you are in dialogue with. Unlike the Social Constructionists that drive me out of my furry little mind on sites such as this one with their mind-bogglingly intellectually absurd positions, I don’t think that the vast majority of ordinary flesh-and-blood suffering is socially, psychologically, or culturally conditioned, but simple a material consequence of having been born. We both have experiences in the real world with real suffering. We both have worked in emergency departments. That’s not social construction, intellectual ideal, or anything like that, and, instead, is ordinary mortality in a very straightforward, non-negotiable way. It is true that we can change some aspects of our relationship to it, as we all know, but that is not at all the same thing as what the idealists and Social Constructionists imagine it is.

    FB: I believe that such causes are rather, in the last instance, to be discovered in material social relations, i.e. in ideological practices, which are always rooted in the forces and relations of production, which is to say, in economics (I am not referring to the academic field of study, which is also an ideology; I am referring to material economic practices—the transformation of nature into material necessities and commodities used to serve humans). This makes me a materialist.

    DMI: In this, and for most material concerns, we agree. Clearly, economics and economic systems drive a lot of the ordinary suffering in the world. We agree that fixation on meditation and spiritual traditions, which do often encourage whole cultures and societies to focus inward and so accept outward gross economic injustices, are a serious and unarguable problem.

    FB: The above is a non-negotiable postulate, as far as I’m concerned. There is no “Middle Way,” no postmodern consideration of all ideas, none of Pragmatism’s never-ending quest to reproduce capitalist ideology. If you think that the proximate cause of human suffering, by which I mean its determination in the last instance, is some thing called “the mind,” then you are an idealist, and we cannot engage in a productive dialogue.

    DMI: Again, and perhaps you weren’t here for the debates long ago in the early days of the SNB kids and debates about me being a fervent capitalist or whatever, know that Bernie Sanders is way too far to the right for my tastes (though better than many of the other center to far right options we have available), that my wife was an active member of the Communist Labor Party in the US for years (truly a rare thing) and that we share very similar politics, that Andrew Yang is getting closer from my point of view but still not there, and that I consider the Neo-Liberal system we have in place now as one of the primary threats to life on the planet, just in case you didn’t know that. We could probably play the “I am even farther to the left than you are” game for a while, but realize that, as enemies go, I am an odd choice, as I find very few friends in the US who go as far in that direction as I do, and if you somehow are farther out on the spectrum than I am, well good on ya, as the Aussies say. I worked in emergency departments in a community, not-for-profit hospital for years as I felt that it was one of the last places that one could truly rob from the rich to care for the poor, as that is what we do all day and night long.

    FB: A preliminary attempt at an ideological critique of x-buddhism. Case study #1: Daniel Ingram and Pragmatic Dharma

    FB: I would add that “arhatship” is the worst possible kind of subjectivity, because it is a completely passive acceptance of the relations of production, a complete inability to denaturalize the dominant social formation (i.e. everything “arises/happens naturally,” to use Ingram’s and x-buddhism’s favorite zombified trope).

    DMI: I actually believe that my work is to subvert dominant forces, and, in fact, spend nearly all day long every working to do so even in my retirement. That also arises naturally, as does your anger, as does resistance, as does the whole fucking rest of it. That you can’t understand that is frustrating. However, this is what physics, chemistry, biology, and many branches of philosophy lead to. Great Feast and all, remember? It is not a zombified trope, it is demonstrable scientific fact, and about as solid a thing as we can hang our hats on at this point in terms of demonstrating that this is a lawful universe that really does work according to elegant principles. That’s not idealism, that’s actually materialism. Perhaps you don’t know what materialism means, so let me explain it to you.

    Remember Newton? I sit about a mile from the site of the mythical apple tree that inspired him regarding the law of gravity, namely here in Cambridge, where, at Trinity College where drew up his clockwork universe. Guess what: he was right, at least at the macro level. Quantum mechanics doesn’t appear to change the straightforward facts he discovered. They hold up. They are reproducible. They are as factual as it gets in this mad world. That you don’t understand that they somehow lead to the rest of it is frustrating. You demonstrate that you are not, in fact, a materialist, as you don’t even fucking know what it means or what it straightforwardly implies and the powerful and profound implications for philosophy that resulted from his discoveries. Curious to accuse me of not having the intellectual capacity to understand philosophy when one of the more straightforward ones that you claim to believe in apparently is entirely beyond you. Materialism is not the whole story, clearly, as it utterly fails to explain topics dear to you and me, such as collective experience, and emergent culture, but it seems undeniable within its scope.

    Just curious: in my posts, do I seem “passive” to you? I have been accused of many things, but you are the first to level “passive” at me. In fact, it seems such the exact opposite of how nearly everyone else in my life finds me, including those that read my posts on forums and know my style in person, that I wonder how in the world you come up with the term as applying to me. “Aggressive”? Yes. “Passive”? Never, literally never. To quote from one of my favorite movies of all time, “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

    FB: Let’s be clear again. This is not a complete inability to act or engage in ideology; arhats will even insist on as much, and it is the one thing they are absolutely right about. Passive acceptance does not mean an inability to act and make conscious decisions. However, it does mean that those decisions will be made without any real agency, without any awareness of one’s ideology.

    DMI: Ok, wait, you accuse me of having all these ideologies that I don’t, and then believe that I am unaware of these ideologies that I am quite sure I don’t have. It is a circular argument, and, while I get that you will call it intellectually lazy, a “straw man argument”. Yet, you seem determined to hold that fixed position despite all evidence to the contrary.

    FB: This is where the sophistry comes in: an arhat will insist that she still experiences emotions, that she can still think and make decisions. But, crucially, if you actually listen to what she says, you will notice that what she is saying is that in such a state she is completely incapable of acting with agency, which I am defining as being aware of one’s ideology, and being able to understand their material functions within our social formation, so as to decide whether they are worth participating in. Emotions, thoughts, even “sensate experience,” are inseparable from social formations, because they always have functions which are materially intertwined with production, and with classes.

    DMI: Nobody ever acts with independent agency: that is, curiously enough, the existential punchline of Materialism, remember? Reality is causal, lawful, natural. That’s the nature of the thing. Delusion people, such as yourself, that don’t intellectually get materialism or experientially get deep practice, wish to believe they somehow are actually independent agents, which is clearly totally fucking nuts, but, still, a common (in both senses of the world) delusion. Still, those dynamics you mention are all operating and real, meaning causal, at all levels for which they apply. Mere sensate clarity is not in any way a denial, dismissal, or any such thing of those levels of framing the world or those aspects of causation and experience. Again, you create a straw man argument that to tear down that simply isn’t true. Why are you so insistent on doing this? What drives this reflex, this habit, this twitch, this tic, this fixed delusion, this blind anger? It is a real, personal question? Said another way, what the fuck happened to you, Dude?

    FB: X-buddhists often display an apparent ability to understand this, and yet, if this is the case, then it would be absolutely absurd to desire a state in which you are not constantly aware of the enormous amount of suffering that your daily life is implicated in.

    DMI: To quote the remarkable Bill Hamilton, “Suffering less, noticing it more.” Yes, one can reduce a certain, very specific type of mental suffering that is unnecessary by doing basically mechanical techniques that create a specific upgrade, but, as stated again and again, it doesn’t eliminate the other forms of suffering, and even makes them much more vivid, intimate in some weird way (as the split is gone), and vitally relevant.

    FB: A preliminary critique of the “pleasant states” (jhanas, “stages,” “paths,” etc.) fetish found in Pragmatic Dharma
    This leads us to the cultivation of pleasant states more broadly, which is the same form of passivity formation. This fetish is present in all of x-buddhism, but it is especially characteristic of pragmatic dharma (just spend five minutes on the Dharma Overground forums). I want to argue that any focus on the cultivation of “positive” states is the highest ideological crime.

    DMI: Ok, wait, are you sure you mean that? Cultivating any positive states is a crime? Please make sure not to run for office, as you would make the likes of Kamala Harris look positively angelic by comparison. If those in the peanut gallery wish to ponder FB’s point for a moment, to dream of of all its implications, to take it to its logical extreme, to imagine a world where that was the dominant logic, what would that world look like? Why would anyone want to live there?

    FB: It is to fail to recognize that bad states can also be cultivated, and that they can be done so entirely unconsciously.

    DMI: Ok, wait, what? Buddhism constantly talks about people without mindfulness and mental training cultivating bad mental states. That’s one of its biggest points. Perhaps you have heard of the Dhammapada? It starts off mentioning this. Do you know much about Buddhism? This is getting weirder and weirder.

    FB: Crucially, these bad states are cultivated while their associated actions are as well (remember the primacy of material/economic forces, which means that any mind “state” is causally with the material world, including the relations of production).

    DMI: Yes, clearly. Your argument is what, and with whom do you believe you are arguing?

    FB: But isn’t it good if some people find that x-buddhism makes life more tolerable? No. I do not give a flying fuck about the wellbeing of your upper middle class x-buddhist… as such.

    DMI: Realize that, if you live in the West, unless you are among the poorest people in the country, your standard of living is likely among the top tier in the world, just to put this in perspective. We both have First World Problems if we spend our time debating points of ideology and philosophy on internet forums rather than spending 16 hours per day in a sweatshop or field. Let’s both work to get over ourselves just a bit here. We both have incredible privilege as this world goes, and that you forget this doesn’t really help your case, Dude, and just makes you look like an, well, it speaks for itself.

    FB: I care about such people’s suffering, but I care about it as much as I care about the suffering of all sentient beings.

    DMI: Really? Interesting. I have a proposition for you then, if that is really true, which is clearly really isn’t. Let me explain. Postulate: FB cares equally about the lives of all beings. Postulate: FB can’t stand hypocrisy. Postulate: FB is willing to do anything to live by his principles. Postulate: Any actions that reduce the most suffering and save the most material lives of beings is an action that FB should and will do. Proof: blah, blah, blah, you can reason it out for yourself. Conclusion: FB should become a cannibal eating those humans who eat or harm other beings until they are all gone (as that truly benefits thousands of beings and the environment and global sustainability) and then he should start on the vegans, who, while better, still leave a large trail of death of insects and global destruction from even organic farming practices, or should at least become a Fundamentalist Jain, at least in practice if not belief. If he wishes, he can eat the most extreme Capitalists first. Hungry? No? Ok, so functionally, you are spouting an idealism you don’t actually functionally believe, and are as hypocritical as you claim I am. In short, get over yourself and get real. It is wild to watch extreme idealists attempt to criticize the lingering ideals of people vastly less idealistic than themselves.

    FB: Therefore, I will not agree to abet in the wellbeing of a minority of the population (i.e. upper middle class x-buddhists) at the expense of the majority of the population (i.e. the kinds of people who cannot meditate themselves into bliss, because they either spend all their time selling their labor to meet their basic (biological) needs, or they are so crippled by capitalism that they cannot function as human beings).

    DMI: Again, First World Problems, Dude. Just curious, what are you eating these days? Where is your power coming from? On what device are you typing your responses? Where does your food come from? Where do your clothes come from? Where do your shoes come from? How did they get to you? How do you get around? How do you get healthcare? Do use things such as roads? Unless you are living on an organic vegan collective with solar panels, spinning your own clothes from organic hemp or flax, and typing on totally recyclable homemade computers sourced from local mines you dug yourself and manufactured in ways more green than any currently known, yet with an abundance of leisure time for creative pursuits and social justice work, you are simply full of shit. If you said, “Actually, I am Amish, and I type this on the computer in the local library against my daddy’s wishes,” ok, you might actually be trying to walk the walk and live the life, but, otherwise, Dude…

    What functional real-world solutions do you actually live and how would you propose we implement them globally in ways that are actually realistic in this non-idealistic, material world you dream of? I have this weird notion that I am going to realize I spent all this time arguing with some sad 16 year-old kid with little life experience from a broken home who just read a few books and got really angry and that I will then do a serious face-palm of disbelief that I wasted my time in this elaborate response.
    Except that there are people who actually seem to buy these sorts of arguments you make, also likely without really thinking about them, as it plays to their knee-jerk tribal loyalties and makes them feel like they belong. I get needing to belong, but that’s a weird group to wish to join, and it is hard to imagine it still having that same glow past, say, 20 years old.

    FB: By engaging in the kinds of practices that x-buddhists engage in—and I am using the term x-buddhism here in Glenn Wallis’ original sense, to refer to subjects who are interpellated into any ideology whose xshares the unitary identity of all Buddhisms—by engaging in such practices they are necessarily reproducing the dominant mode and relations of production. These practices produce a subject who does not ever need to truly question them.

    DMI: It is ironic that, on my own forum, I took a tremendous amount of shit for mentioning my delight with a recent article that makes that exact point, as it is true that plenty of my friends don’t like mixing politics and dharma, but I really do, so it is ironic that here I get it from the other end. It is a weird world. Score one for the Buddha, as the Eight Worldly Winds blow impersonally as always. Here’s the thread, in case you missed it or didn’t understand it: https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/12888498

    FB: In other words, these “states” and “skills”—the “ends” toward which pragmatists want us to employ their “techniques”—so sought after by x-buddhists are ideological ones, and they are completely unconscious. Because it is “easier” for them to engage in harmful ideological practices without suffering through it, they will never want to question those practices.

    DMI: You just keep saying these things and they keep not being true, at least in this case. I agree that there is plenty of unquestioned dharma out there, but do you just single me out as I will actually talk with you, where as most of the x-Buddhist world that is vastly farther into the territory you don’t like simply won’t bother to even notice you, much less engage with your critiques?

    I wax Boomer and modify an old Sufi story: “A man lost his keys on his way home late one night, and was searching under a streetlamp for them. When asked by another man if he had lost his keys there, the man replied no, but that was where the light was.” In the same way, am I really the optimal target, or just the only one who for some reason will actually dialogue with you?

    FB: And I mean suffering fully, not in Ingram’s sense of “kind of,” “sort of” suffering, but not really, because while suffering does arise—okay, at least he admits this—it arises in a different weird and interesting way which makes it more tolerable.

    DMI: No, not really in all cases. I am blessed with the occasional kidney stone, which, while not all universally horrible, and I occasionally pass one I hardly notice, when they hit with the full force of pain that they are capable of producing, it is truly remarkable how not-tolerable it is. I recall a shift in the emergency department where one hit and I had to run upstairs to intubate and run a code on a dying patient. Just as I was bending over to put the tube in her airway, a particularly horrible pain hit me so hard that I am amazed to this day that I neither screamed, vomited on the woman, nor passed out on top of her from its sheer intensity. Yes, the relationship to the pain was different, and that does help somehow, but that’s really different from making any pain tolerable, something a I have never claimed.

    FB: No, this is not what I mean. I mean suffering in the sense that every victim of the civil war in Congo, which is fueled by our fucking Tweets, suffers. The way a single mother whose child dies because she cannot afford medicine due to the capitalist healthcare “system” suffers.

    DMI: Why are you arguing with me about this stuff. Remember ER doctor? I get it. I have been there. You have also, I recall. Why the venom against another worker who tries to help these sorts of things? I really don’t understand your directing your anger this way. Help explain it.

    FB: From this brief examination of pleasant states—or for that matter any reduction of suffering that is not brought about by material, social engagement with the world and with other humans, but rather only by individual practice and a focus on immediate experience—from this examination we can add one final postulate.
    Postulate: There is no way to truly act in accordance with the bodhisattva vows, to act with agency to address the real causes of suffering, unless one is committed to talking only about the material forces of suffering, which are determinant, in the last instance, of the realm of ideology and of “the mind.”

    DMI: Again, this notion that purely working at the level of ideology and the mind can help this world is purest delusion. We are on the same page in this regard. Remember ER doctor? I couldn’t just dream my patients well. I couldn’t just think them well. I couldn’t just think them back to life when they died. I couldn’t just socially convention wizard their pain and illness away. A little bit of that suffering can be mitigated by some social reframing, some mental tricks, some distraction, some placebo effect, some kind words, some ritual chest compressions, or whatever, but the vast majority of it needed material work, as you well know and you know I know well. Thus, why do you keep leveling this sort of criticism at me? Why do you need me to be this delusional creature of your imagination to make up an argument with? It is really weird behavior. Any psychological insight into what is driving this fervent interpersonal social dynamic?

    Oh, yes, I didn’t take the time to read the rest of the comments above, as this page is already almost 28,000 words of text before my post, which, as we all know, is far beyond the allowed exchange in this community, as we know from FB’s post that even 21,000 words is unacceptable in civilized dialogue, right? This post itself, with FB’s quotes, logs in at about 5,700. That short enough for your attention span? If not, consider meditation, as it has actually been demonstrated by Science to improve attention spans. Great Feast! Yay!

    Seriously, Dude, get help.

  84. Chadette Piper Avatar
    Chadette Piper

    As Daniel has very kindly offered his prognosis of Chaim as someone clearly suffering mental illness (as what other reason could there be for criticising his dharma) in order that Chaim can seek the proper help, in the same spirit, let’s consider what Daniel presents, so he can seek help for his condition (though I presume he won’t be reading this, because, word count, but if anyone knows him they can pass it along)

    In my unprofessional opinion, we have a case here of (grandiose) narcissistic personality disorder. Some symptoms:
    – Have an exaggerated sense of self-importance
    – Have a sense of entitlement and require constant, excessive admiration
    – Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
    – Exaggerate achievements and talents
    – Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
    – Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people
    – Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior
    – Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
    – Behave in an arrogant or haughty manner, coming across as conceited, boastful and pretentious

    And what we have in this response is a excellent case study in narcissistic rage.

    My favourite bit was when Daniel wrote “Criticising my x-buddhism is not my thing, and I think it is bad to criticise my x-buddhism, so I like to spend all my time on forums devoted to criticising x-buddhism railing against people who like to criticise my x-buddhism”.

    I am not sure this tells much about x-buddhism though. It seems to be more about how this is expressed through NPD.

  85. geovock Avatar
    geovock

    Blimey! I believe we’re standin in a narcissistic anthill.

  86. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    Dear Chadette,

    Thanks for your post, which helped spur me to solidify a bit of deconstruction, to use an odd mixed metaphor.

    SNB has some patterns to its attacks, as I see it, and it is sometimes very aware of these patterns and consciously writes about them, often using them very intentionally for its deconstructive work. While there might be more Patterns than the two I list below, these two are my primary focus here:

    Pattern 1 attack: Write incisive and harsh but relatively accurate and sometimes extremely poignant criticisms of things generally x-Buddhist drawing from other fields of study and work outside of x-Buddhism and even from within various aspects of x-Buddhism itself.

    Pattern 2 attack: Write distorted, exaggerated, ironic, hyper-critical, toxic, unfair criticisms of things generally x-Buddhist, often arguing in those critiques that something x-Buddhist is extremely different from how it actually is. Often it is doing this generically, as in, “Postulate X: x-Buddhism is a useless trash heap of stupid delusion dedicated to rapidly ruining the planet through its fanatical love of Robber Baron Capitalism,” or whatever. However, occasionally it gets more focused and launches very targeted attacks on specific traditions or even specific individuals in this manner. However, in general, this is not actually that common at the SNB site as I read it, and it often stays at least one level above that sort of personal politics.

    Curiously, regarding Pattern 1 attacks, we are very often allies, despite an often knee-jerk reluctance to acknowledge that. The vast majority of the criticisms that SNB levels at many aspects of contemporary, traditional, and various other hybrids and variants of what appears in the world of x-Buddhism I share and have myself leveled in my own works and have been for 20 years. We share a deep distrust and frustration with much of the hype, bullshit, exaggerated claims, distorted worldview, excesses, transference, countertransference, exploitation, guru insanity, enforced passivity, cultiness, sexual and financial abuse, corporatization, monolithic institutionalization, lack of internal mechanisms of self-criticism and reform, an inability to examine realistically what works and what doesn’t, lack of scientific and philosophical sophistication, and the nicey-nicey language that much of x-Buddhism fetishizes. That part of SNB is very, very much my thing, and so I engage with it.

    Pattern 2 attacks, however, are more complicated. SNB clearly and consciously, sometimes at least, uses highly distorted Pattern 2 attacks to kick the bear as a diagnostic experiment to and what happens thus to see what sort of bear it is. This is a known, well-documented strategy on the SNB site, a time-honored tactic here, part of the drama and show. It is well within SNB culture as an explicitly accepted mode of argument and considered not only a valid part of its social and rhetorical experiment, but a crucial part of it, a key component of its bitter medicine. Here’s the problem: sorting out what is Pattern 1 but with a high degree of confusion on the part of the Pattern 1 writer regarding what they are criticizing, and what is Pattern 2, where the writer is accurately aware of the intentional distortions and mischaracterizations they are creating but doing it for diagnostic purposes, is not always easy. It is not always easy for those who are reading the SNB site, but, I will claim, is not always easy for even those writing on the SNB site to know for themselves, as, like all communities, it is a bit of an echo chamber, and so a Pattern 2 attack might really just seem like a Pattern 1 attack to those who, caught up in the performative aspects and the fun of the mosh pit, are uncritically evaluating their own criticism.

    Adding to the confusion is that a consciously launched Pattern 2 attack only works if you don’t label it as a Pattern 2 attack, as, if you do, the bear just goes, “Oh, just another Pattern 2 attack,” and so the kick becomes a tap or even just a joke. However, by not labeling Pattern 2 attacks as Pattern 2 attacks, not only will the bears mistake them for Pattern 1 attacks and thus feel kicked as intended, some readers will mistake them for Pattern 1 attacks.

    It is reasonable to assume that if x-Buddhism, which has a lot of smart, caring people in it, often can’t appropriately criticize itself, just so, one can reasonably presume that SNB similarly has a lot of smart, caring people in it, and, as is so common in this world, also can’t always appropriately criticize itself and can’t always know when it is missing its target or not understanding its target.

    What is interesting is that the vast majority of those against whom SNB levels criticism will never see that criticism. SNB Isn’t on their radar screen. They could truly care less. They have their big, overflowing meditation centers, their best-selling books, etc., and, even if they did find the SNB site, they not only would be highly unlikely to take the time to try to understand what it was doing, they would likely have no insight into what SNB leveled against them even if they did. Furthermore, when they run into Pattern 2 behavior, they can easily write off SNB as just being the delusional, angry, toxic, distorted, inaccurate, and misrepresentative trash heap that it sometimes appears to be. This willingness to be trashy is at once part of SNB’s charm and its greatest weakness. It is a weakness we both share, as I have no problems getting trashy myself, and, if some noses get broken in the mosh pit, well, we knew the risks and we were willing to dance anyway. In this, we are closer than you imagine.

    What is even more confusing to all concerned except to those who have the meta-cognitive awareness of what they are doing is that SNB often mixes in Pattern 1 with Pattern 2 in its writings, often in the same paragraph or even the same sentence. However, I will assert that this is not always done consciously and with full awareness that Pattern 2 is in play, or, if it is, then readers also won’t always know that Pattern 2 is in play, and just think, “Oh, wow, yeah, of course x-Buddhism really is totally obsessed with destroying the planet through its Robber Baron Capitalism fetish,” never realizing that this was a Pattern 2 diagnostic, rhetorical attack. It is a bit like Trump supporters believing in Pizza Gate, and, in some ways, not entirely unlike Obama supporters who believed he would punish the Big Banks for the crash or whatever, as they both believed their own party’s critical rhetoric uncritically. There is abundant evidence for readers and repliers not seeing Pattern 2 attacks for what they are on this site.

    My primary concern in my posts is making sure that those reading and even those posting are aware of when Pattern 1 vs. Pattern 2 attacks are in play, and highlighting what the distortions are that are involved in Pattern 2 attacks so that SNB doesn’t ironically become just another Fox News for people who misinterpret its Pattern 2 attacks as Pattern 1 attacks, as that truly would be a tragedy, as there are good points made here in the Pattern 1 attacks that aren’t being made many other places this well.

    Also, when one kicks the SNB bear, it is interesting to see what kind of bear it is, which I realize can be confusing for a bear that is used to kicking but really doesn’t get kicked that hard that often. If my kicks have been too hard in this case, my sincere apologies. I do believe that FB has very good aspects and really cares about these topics, and, in that, is worthy of respect, support, and the honor of engagement. I also truly do believe that FB has some pretty real pain somewhere, pain that I truly wish FB could find a way to heal that, though, in this, perhaps I am wrong, and all this is just part of FB’s Pattern 2 show and theatrics, all in good fun, and, if I have been wrong about this, again, my apologies.

    Similarly, it is very hard to know if your post is a Pattern 1 or Pattern 2 attack. Perhaps you truly believe me to be a narcissist, so see your unprofessional diagnosis as an accurate Pattern 1 attack. However, it also might be a Pattern 2 attack by someone who likes seeing what this bear does when kicked again, as it is so rare that you gets bears around these parts that are willing to play, as most don’t like getting kicked. Which Pattern is it?

    However, there is another possibility, that you see your post as a Pattern 1 attack, but in reality it is a Pattern 2 attack, as you fail to appreciate that I am one who is frustrated that they share so much in common with the SNB site yet believe that some who see themselves as being Pattern 1 attackers instead, through their misunderstandings of, in this case, my life’s work and the things I care most about, become Pattern 2 attackers without realizing their misunderstandings. Consider how you might respond were similar Pattern 2 attacks leveled at your life’s work again and again and again.

    Please, land all the accurate Pattern 1 punches you can land, as I can appreciate the spirit and work of that and am happy to step into he ring now and then. However, if you level Pattern 2 attacks or distorted attempts at Pattern 1 attacks that don’t realize that they are distorted, I will generally attempt to turn those dialogues back into undistorted Pattern 1 dialogues. While I can in theory appreciate the sort of “Burn it all and see what grows from the ashes” approach and the drama and theater of that, try to forgive me if, when repeatedly leveled at my person and my life’s work, I prefer Pattern 1.

  87. Chadette Piper Avatar
    Chadette Piper

    Dear Daniel

    I am trying to understand why, despite all your recent engagement with SNB, that you don’t show any evidence of understanding what Glenn’s project is really about. You seem to think you understand it. But it doesn’t appear that you do.

    I can see you are really trying to engage, but my reasonable conclusion that there is an inherent problem that is stopping you, that might be insurmountable, but maybe not. Without being able to understand SNB more than at a surface level, then I feel what you primarily bring is a demonstration of how your lack of understanding is expressed in your own personality patterns (i.e. narcissism), rather than in any serious engagement of the ideas.

    What I can suggest is reading Glenn’s recent book. It’s expensive to buy right now. Perhaps he can send you a copy.

    Alternatively, an earlier condensed expression can be found here: https://speculativenonbuddhism.com/2011/11/18/nascent-non-buddhism/

    What you would need to do for rehabilitation is to apply Glenn’s tools and framework not to others, but to yourself, to your work and ideas. I am imagine this is going to be difficult, but not impossible.

  88. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    I bought Glenn’s book some weeks ago, making it the most expensive non-Buddhist book I own, though it is also the only Officially Certified non-Buddhist book I own in that special SNB sense. 😉 Actually, after two exceedingly expensive medical textbooks, and one prized copy of a original hardcover of Jack Vance’s first novel, it is my most expensive book I have bought to date. I understand that the only hope for salvation is the challenging, expensive, proprietary program of the Great Leader, but, for those who submit to conversion, elevation can at last be achieved in an elect few, such as your exalted self. I have read about 25% of it but will hopefully have gotten through more of it shortly, as you suggest.

  89. Paula Burns Avatar
    Paula Burns

    Just to say I read the PDF file for free online – I don’t know if that link still exists Glenn but perhaps you could put it on the site someplace if its the case. On a cursory reading I didn’t find the content that different to ‘Cruel Theory – Sublime Practice’ which is reasonably priced.

  90. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    This brief exploration of what “belief” implies by James P. Carse might be of general use https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdIP6HilbWE&feature=youtu.be&t=1354 “…once we have a very strong and clear belief we also assume that there will be nothing happening afterwards to change the nature of that belief so that in effect what’s happened is that for us the true believer history has ended we’ve reached the end of significant history, things will happen but we will always understand them in present terms”

    I would add that the nature of beliefs is that we also believe we would change our beliefs if evidence pointed to their incoherence. The problem I see is that the “present terms” form an impression of coherency which is actually rhetoric (or poetry as J. Carse would say).

    Perhaps transcending these issues would result in a sort of playful engagement with ideas alongside a committed practise. Perhaps that needs to alternate with a sort of playful practise alongside a committed engagement with ideas.

  91. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Paula. You might be referring to the libgen link.

    Daniel. Thanks for your Pattern 1/2 analysis. Can you provide a couple of titles of what you see as P2? As it stands, it isn’t clear what you mean by that category. Relatedly, and just to be clear, you are using “trash” in the colloquial sense, correct? You know, I assume from your convo with O’Connell, that we use it in the technical sense of The Invisible Committee. Correct? Your usage created confusion for me.

    A couple more points of clarification. We are not producing texts and practices with the hope that those people you mention with their big meditation halls and best-selling books engage with us. God forbid! What a mind-numbing bore that would be! This point can be coupled to another clarification. We are not operating with a Great Leader or even Teacher model on this site. I see SNB as an agent of incitement. Let me speak for myself and say that I am an enemy of leaders and teachers. I despise that model and anyone who assumes that role. My role here, as in my most recent writing and at Incite Seminars, is to provoke others to create their own thoughts about the issues, and to encourage the production of texts, concepts, and communities. A certain anarchic indeterminacy ensues from this approach. I wonder if this is, in part, what you are seeing as P2?

  92. Chadette Piper Avatar
    Chadette Piper

    Just in reference to Pattern 1 vs. Pattern 2, Daniel provides an example which is my post about narcissistic personality disorder as Pattern 2.

    I don’t find it hugely helpful, as it seems to be about his perspective, and thereby further revealing about the point being made there. So, to recap:

    Pattern 1: accurate criticism
    Pattern 2: unfair/inaccurate criticism – which can be conscious or unconsciously made. may involve humour.

    For example:

    Pattern 1: Failed Buddhist is “gross, despicable, cowardly, foolish, and tragic” for criticising Daniel Ingram
    Pattern 2: Daniel Ingram is a narcissist

    Or here is another one:

    Pattern 1: some x-buddhisms involve bullshit, exaggerated claims, distorted worldview, excesses, transference, countertransference, exploitation, guru insanity, enforced passivity, cultiness, lack of internal mechanisms of self-criticism and reform, lack of scientific and philosophical sophistication,
    Pattern 2: pragmatic dharma involves bullshit, exaggerated claims, distorted worldview, excesses, transference, countertransference, exploitation, guru insanity, enforced passivity, cultiness, lack of internal mechanisms of self-criticism and reform, lack of scientific and philosophical sophistication

  93. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    FB: Buncha stuff about Daniel and PD that largely isn’t true.
    DMI: WTF? No! Dude?
    Piper: Daniel is a narcissist.

    Piper: SNB offers an exclusive cult-like path to salvation delivered only by the message and path provided by the leader GW to a select elite, presumably including her.
    GW: WTF? No! Dude?
    Piper: crickets.

    That’s not quite the equality at the Great Feast that your site theoretically promises. That’s called “home court advantage”.

  94. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Daniel. You’ve misunderstand the concept of the Great Feast of Knowledge. It isn’t a model for the commentariat, although it does figure there sometimes. The Great Feast of Knowledge is a means of disabling the principle of sufficient buddhism. It is employed when you bring, say, certain biological theories of desire to bear on the x-buddhist concept of tanha. The Great Feast introduces a supplement into the unitary system of some x-buddhism.

    Chadette Piper understands that we are engaged in a form of practice here, rather than in inculcation into yet another unitary system. So, the idea of there being a “leader” or a “path,” much less a cult-like one, is far off the mark.

  95. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    “Stripped down, deprived of their regency, institutionally indigent, the Buddhist agents enter the hall indistinguishable from everyone else.”

    Wallis, Glenn. A Critique of Western Buddhism . Bloomsbury Publishing. Kindle Edition.

    Oh, wait, it just says the Buddhists, not the SNB kids. Right! Got it. Ok, yes, that is specific to them that they come in equal, stripped of regency. The selective application of the concept is now verified in textual reference and in functional practice. All is clear, and so your method is verified. At last, a success!

  96. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    Oh, yes, your examples:

    Piper, leveling Pattern 1 attack on SNB: “What you would need to do for rehabilitation is to apply Glenn’s tools and framework not to others, but to yourself, to your work and ideas. I am imagine this is going to be difficult, but not impossible.”

    Glenn Wallis, leveling Pattern 2 attack on Piper: “Chadette Piper understands that we are engaged in a form of practice here, rather than in inculcation into yet another unitary system. So, the idea of there being a “leader” or a “path,” much less a cult-like one, is far off the mark.”

    Get it?

  97. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    Then the question for the peanut gallery is, “Is what Daniel just did a Pattern 1 or Pattern 2 attack?”

  98. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Daniel. No. I don’t “get it.” Translation assistance requested. Yes, we all “enter the hall indistinguishable from everyone else.” Like now, and here. What is your point?

  99. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    Ok, question for those reading along, and to try to get external perspectives to the degree that they might have some sense of “objectivity”, whatever that is, “Does anyone here truly believe that Glenn Wallis, the owner and visionary behind the SNB site, whose writings underpin its very function and existence, truly enters this hall indistinguishable from everyone else, and so, at the Great Feast here on the SNB site, he is truly deprived of all regency here in his house?”

    I will make the claim that it is nearly impossible to have this functionally occur, as we are pack animals, and our instinct to defend our leaders and give them some special privilege and weight to their opinions is hardwired at deep levels that our brains are far more likely to rationalize than they are to be perfectly meta-aware of in a way that we could perfectly compensate for. You know this regarding others, at least, as you write about it extensively as an x-Buddhist behavior. However, it is not confined to x-Buddhism, but all human encounters and situations, as the psychologists, anthropologists, and social scientists who study this know all too well.

    Thus, by apparently having zero insight into the uneven power dynamics going on here, as you freely and plainly admit, you again make it very easy to level what I believe is a Pattern 1 attack, that the SNB kids are unable, as basically all humans are unable, to entirely strip their leader of his full regency on their home court and be free from all biases regarding the weight of his opinions vs those of others, as well as to have sufficient awareness of these dynamics to pull that off. Ditto for their comrades, family members, home teams, and champions.

    This is nothing personal, and serves to make a larger point, that being that the idealism regarding what SNB should be able to do that x-Buddhism is incapable of accomplishing is underpinned by assumptions that, as predicted by basic social theory and nearly all of human history, will not be able to fully hold up in practice, as much as everyone, including me, would like them to. Having some honest awareness of this will help.

    By setting up the Ideal of the Great Feast as being as you state it should be, you, by being the leader who defines the terms and sets the agenda, deprive your community of being able to have much needed conversations about Transference and Countertransference, and so create a doctrinal and structural blindness to these perennial aspects of human interaction.

    Postulate 1: All human interactions will have unconscious and subconscious biases that favor their comrades, leaders, family members, home teams, and champions.

    Postulate 2: All humans will be unable to perfectly apply ideals that would flawlessly counterbalance Postulate 1.

    Postulate 3: However, some idealistic humans will believe that they can perfectly apply ideals of creating true equity despite all evidence to the contrary.

    Imagine if I stated, “At the Dharma Overground, my opinion is indistinguishable from others posting on the forum, and we all come to that table of co-adventuring stripped of regency, just more good people helping each other out free of bias and any trace of hierarchy,” you rightly would scream, “Delusion! Oh, that x-Buddhist! He is so blind to his own power and the dynamics that creates! He is just another foolish leader and that is just another foolish community!”, and, in this, would perhaps be doing us a service, or at least attempting to. I don’t for a minute believe that on my own forum which, while diverse, in general does give weight to my book and other works, that I could possibly be treated equally to everyone else there. I have privilege on the DhO. I have power on the DhO, likely more power than any of the other thousands of forum members. These are simply truths.

    I am in an alpha role in my community at the moment, as you are in yours. There are other alphas around the DhO, and some of us get along well, but we all know we are alphas, or at least I hope we do. Even if I didn’t write the book that draws many of the forum’s participants (though certainly not all by any means), the simple fact that I am also the administrator of the website and can ban members and remove posts imposes clear power dynamics on the DhO, and it is 100% impossible that those aware of my power won’t have what they post there and about me and my ideas skewed by that simple fact, particularly when it comes to criticism of me. This, while unfortunate in obvious ways, is just a straightforward fact of life, which is a never-ending set of uneven power dynamics. I can attempt to be aware of these dynamics and sensitive to them, but I am 100% sure that I am not going to be able to perfectly compensate for them, nor is the community, as it is my house in the end, my party, my Feast there.

    O Glenn, dear Glenn, this is your forum. You created this place, this house, this Feast, this party. You gathered this tribe. You moderate forum posts. You wrote some of the key books. You write key visionary posts. You literally define the operative proprietary lexicon. You have power here, power out of proportion to anyone else here. You can either admit that, and then there is the possibility of having an honest conversation about it, or you can try to pretend it is not happening, as you just did, and that the Great Feast is as you say it is. That’s exactly the same sort of blind delusional situation you so rightly decry. Remarkable how easy it is to fall into the traps we so clearly see others falling into, isn’t it? In saying this, I don’t mean in any way to say that I am not guilty of this as well, as I absolutely am. My own ideals of perfect equity and co-adventuring have the same very real potential shadow sides, shadow sides that am at least 100% intellectually sure I don’t fully comprehend and can’t fully compensate for, even as much as I might try.

    Similar power dynamics arise in more complex interactions between forum posters. Piper posted something that might rightly be read as a scathing critique of the place, and you gently and politely reframed it as something else, as leaders do, as friends do, as x-Buddhists do, as everyone does.

    That you have fallen into the same trap that so many leaders do might, perhaps, give just the slightest taste of the fact that the human communities that you criticize so vehemently might be just as human as you, and that you might be just as human as them, as me, as all of us.

    However, this does help prove one of your key points and assumptions, that kicking the bear does help you see what sort of bear it is, last least what sort of bear it is when kicked, which might not be a perfectly clear read, and so, in that, at least, you can take justified pride in the degree to which your methods are salutary, and so Piper is also validated and justified in what she said above regarding the efficacy of your methods and practices.

  100. Mitro Avatar
    Mitro

    Daniel, unlike you and Glenn, most of us here (except for maybe FB) I will assume don’t have the luxury of time to delve into these matters in an obsessively pathological manner. Neither of you are necessary to our health and survival in any way be that physically, psychologically or spiritually. I for one, flick through the blog and read posts of interest, and on occasion make a comment sometimes to the delight and at others to the disgust of readers. That leads to everything from personal insults to unyielding support getting flung my way. Do I take any of it seriously? Not really. I don’t know any of these people’s lives in any detail other than through the posts and comments and to make a judgement on the validity of their points or their being, including Glenn’s, other than seeing them as just another human with an opinion or intellectualised understanding of things among millions of others, would be pure folly, and quite foolish. With that in mind Glenn’s conception and construction of this blog/forum and it’s concept does not make him guru, or non-guru or anti guru, at least in my mind for that matter. Neither does it make FB and Piper the faithful and unflinching disciples, nor you the knight in shining armour bearing the weapons of social and evolutionary psychology that turns up to save us all from our blind commitment to an SNB movement and it’s underlying hypocrisies. We are not idiots. To be honest I consider this whole tit for tat interaction quite embarrassing and immature. Yes, a playful dialogue is important but once it starts to become spiteful punches I think of the age old wisdom of ‘it’s all fun and games until someone loses and eye’. The learning disappears appears and the naive ignorance begins. Everyone just needs to get off their high horse and engage with the subject matter to see what it does for them and their journey. If it’s too stressful they don’t need to come back. There are many other blogs… I’m sure they can find one to frolic in…. the internet is an abyss of endless conflicting options. No one holds the sacred gospel on anything, but I can assure that we all share the common urge and passion to search for it. SNB is simply another tool. Pick it up an try it, and if it works use it, if not turf it.

  101. geovock Avatar
    geovock

    “You’re gonna need an ocean of Calamine lotion.” – The Coasters

  102. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    Daniel. You are bringing up a super important and interesting issue: power. I would go so far as to claim that it is the issue at the heart of the non-buddhism project. You can, in fact, read the non as possessing a depotentializing function. The operations around non have the literal function of sapping the auto-generating force of a given system of thought, or indeed community of practice, or whatever. The axiom at work behind this move states that the identity of the person is non-transferable. Systems such as x-buddhism derive their sustenance precisely from this act of identity transference. So, one way of understanding non-buddhism is that as an attempt to help the interpellated x-buddhist subject disentangle herself from its vast pulsating voltaic network of postulation, and to thereby reclaim the power that was hers all along.

    The trope of the Great Feast is after a similar result, but within a different domain of activity. Let’s call that domain doctrinal, as opposed to the psychological one involving identity. Each of us leaves our doctrinal weapons, uniforms, medals, retinues, etc., at the coat check. We “enter the hall indistinguishable from everyone else.” But then all hell breaks loose, or might. I chose the image of a great feast to capture something of the riotous nature of a medieval festival. It is raucous in there. Stripping, depotentialization, occurs only in the first instance. As you correctly assert, power dynamics will inevitably emerge. But since we are talking about doctrines and not psychologies, the dynamic will effect not egos but ideas. Again, as you can read posted in bold print on the door to the Great Feast of Knowledge, its entire purpose is the combustion of all principles of sufficient x.

    Do you agree that we may speak of power as a human Real? Like death, power is inevitable. At least, it certainly appears to be. Put people together, and a power dynamic will emerge. Try to flatten it out, as in Communist collectives, and yet–there it is! Try to destroy it, as in Nazi death factories, and yet–there it is! Try to crush it as in American prisons, and yet–there it is! Try to deny it, as in the Quaker meetings around here (Philadelphia), and yet–there it is! I believe that the very inevitability of power and of the distribution and dynamics of power obligates us to factor it in as a profoundly significant feature of any project.

    You write: “I have privilege on the Dharma Overground. I have power on the DhO, likely more power than any of the other thousands of forum members. These are simply truths.” Yes, but they are trivial truths. The non-trivial issue revolves around what you do with that privilege and power, what sort of dynamic you create given its seemingly inevitable emergence. The very fact that “alphas” appear on this blog is not evidence of our ignorance around power, it is evidence of the Real of power. Again, the question becomes what we do with it.

    I can only assert, and suggest that you will uncover evidence on some digging around, that I take an anarchist approach to power on this blog. (I learned this approach in the highly unorthodox, indeed anarchist, high school I attended. “High school” might be a bit much since we were only twenty-one students at our height. It was more like a Trash Community. It’s a long story.) Anarchist thinkers are, in my opinion, among the most insightful theoreticians of power because of a central axiom of their ideology: the utter abjection of unjustified authority. Yes, power dynamics emerge; someone steps to the forefront; others fall into place. This happens even in anti-authoritarian anarchist communities, like my high school. Does this fact alone signify a failure or a contradiction or individual and communal self-delusion or a masking of power? It might. Power is not manipulative. The rendering invisible of power is manipulative. So, the anarchist solution is to place power interminably in the spotlight, and ask of it: is it justified? If the answer is yes, in this instance, justified another question quickly follows: should that power be institutionalized? The answer to that question is an eternal, adamant: NO!

    So, this is a long-winded way of saying that I think you are confusing trivial issues around power and non-trivial ones. Trivial: I, as the creator and administrator of this blog “set up the Ideal of the Great Feast as being as [I] state it should be,” etc. Non-trivial: I, as the creator and administrator of this blog, having so set it up, invite others to weigh in, work with the concept, challenge and alter it according to necessity and use, etc. Trivial: power dynamics exist. Non-trivial: and so let’s be conscious of the Real of Power, and find ways to counter what we deem problematic manifestations. And so on.

    For example, you write: “you deprive your community of being able to have much needed conversations about Transference and Countertransference, and so create a doctrinal and structural blindness to these perennial aspects of human interaction.” I, as the creator and administrator of this blog, respond: write an essay on those issues and I will post it on the blog. I’d love to see that!

    A post related to the issue of authority is “Spectral Discourse”. I wonder, Daniel, which, if any, of these discourse styles you see yourself embodying. Thanks for the engagement!

  103. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    I have been thinking about whether, and how, to continue engaging in this thread. I must admit, I tend to remain stubbornly idealistic in naively thinking that those who are trapped in capitalist ideology can be jolted into recognizing it, and into arriving at a place where they want to at least try to change it. For all my talk about abandoning delusion, I tend to remain so even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary. So far, in this thread, instead of finding others who want to engage in explicitly anti-capitalist ideological work, I have mainly been met with reactionary ideological resistance and incoherent attempts to deny reality. I have been accused of such high crimes as attempting to “convert” others to the notion that capitalism is the determinant and dominant ideology of our age (sourfoot), of resembling some kind of oppressive communist dictatorship due to my refusal to deny reality (geovock), and of occupying a some kind of “moral high ground” for having such lofty intentions as explicitly addressing capitalism. These conversations thus inevitably turn from the material state of affairs to discussions of “beliefs,” “paradigms,” “narratives,” etc. For Mark, for instance, facts are “beliefs,” and holding on to “beliefs” is the problem, rather than ideologies as material practices. For Paul, simply changing one’s “narrative” is what is most important. What a sad state of affairs.

    I am glad that there seem to be a few who at least appear to be willing to have such a conversation, though most seem hesitant to accept that ideology is material, that it is economic, and that said material practices are in the last instance determinant of the “mind.”

    To Paula and others who might be scared away, I hope you will continue to read (and perhaps even engage in) the material on this site. Not all of the material here is always explicitly Marxist or anti-capitalist. If that’s not your cup of tea just yet, that’s fine. I just don’t think I am capable, at this point in my life, of engaging with those who are not ready to confront the productive ideological situation of the human race. It has taken far too much energy to try to “convert” others to the position that capitalism is harmful and that it is the absolute most important problem that needs to be explicitly addressed. I simply don’t know if I have the energy to continue doing so.

    Paul Brennan: I’ve wasted several hours now reading into Michael White and his “narrative therapy.” I fail to see how this nonsense is any different than your standard “psychotherapeutic” and x-buddhist mantra: it’s all about changing one’s “narrative” and “perspective,” as opposed to turning attention directly toward the material and the productive forces of society that are determinant of such things. You are clearly too committed to the field psychology—”radical” or otherwise—to see the harm it causes, even under the various guises of reform that have overtaken it time and again, always to disappointing effect. I will not waste my time with this discussion any further.

    Daniel: Like Paul with psychotherapy, you are clearly too attached to Mahasi and your “attainments” to see their ideological effects clearly. It is absurd to suggest that not being interested in something disqualifies one from critiquing it. Quite the contrary, it is precisely the fact that I have gotten over whatever bogus “attainments” were provided to me by Vipassana practice, and that I have realized that they are ideologies (and harmful ones at that) rather than “attainments,” which makes me qualified to do so. You are obviously going through some stage of trying desperately to hold on to your attainments. That I am not qualified to deal with, however, so I will hold off on responding at length until you figure your stuff out and are ready to let go of your attachments.

    To anyone who is actually interested in developing explicitly anti-capitalist material and social (not individual or “meditative”) practices, please, for the love of Buddha, reach out to me. I would love to have an in-person conversation as to how we may go about doing so.

  104. Chadette Piper Avatar
    Chadette Piper

    Daniel:
    Piper, leveling Pattern 1 attack on SNB: “What you would need to do for rehabilitation is to apply Glenn’s tools and framework not to others, but to yourself, to your work and ideas. I am imagine this is going to be difficult, but not impossible.”
    Piper: SNB offers an exclusive cult-like path to salvation delivered only by the message and path provided by the leader GW to a select elite, presumably including her.
    GW: WTF? No! Dude?

    Piper: crickets.

    I have to admit I am confused by your responses heres. You made a “Pattern 2 attack” in response to my suggestion (e.g. use of humour). I ignored it because I didn’t find it all that interesting or on the mark, and just added to my impression you don’t understand SNB all that well.

    I was using a metaphor of illness following your response to FB (where you diagnosed him as mentally ill and mixed in some thoughts for his welfare with numerous insults). I wasn’t intending to make any critique of SNB. At heart there was a serious suggestion. You have been trying to create an in-group by aligning your interests with that of SNB with a shared out-group, but don’t appear to realise how others might see as part of that out-group (bullshit, exaggerated claims, distorted worldview of pragmatic dharma etc etc…). I think you won’t able to really understand SNB unless you understand how these critiques are about you (and a/your relationship with Buddhism). As a blog SNB is a messy big place but the pdf/book provide something condensed and specific. Yes, there might be some hope for salvation, but probably not possible without sufficient “requisite disenchantment”. But I am half kidding again here.

    The main point is that if you don’t understand SNB then what’s left is a lot of ego-flailing. Which is a shame, because if you were able to engage fully with the ideas (as opposed to just the form and ego-stuff) I think you could bring something really interesting to the table.

  105. Mitro Avatar
    Mitro

    For communicative efficiency I think some short koans are in order.

    Glenn: A curious member of the public walks into an Anarchist club and gets kicked in the shin as a welcome. He spits back in retaliation and walks away thinking “screw this authoritarian right wing shit… anarchism sucks”. Suddenly his thoughts are interrupted by a celebratory chant yelling “Another saved!”. He thinks to himself “Well… It takes a fool to know a fool”.

    Daniel: A cave dwelling arahant find himself subject to a subtle yet persistent drip on his head from a developing crack in rocks above. He thinks to himself “Ahhh Buddha nature”and the drip cries back “No it’s just Glenn”. He gets up and changes seating position.

    FB: A carpenter who has studied, practiced and refined the ultimate nail strike is approached by a local villager about helping him build a house. He accepts, collects his tools and follows the villager to the property. On arrival he only sees bails of hay and mud. He says ‘”Where’s the wood?” and the villager replies “I’m just a mere peasant”. The carpenter replies “… and an imbecile”.

    Gassho.

  106. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    I can definitely appreciate the craft, care, and creativity that went into those koans, as the contain sufficient ambiguity that they can be interpreted a wide variety of ways, likely more even than those that immediately come to mind. Reading about Spectral Discourse now.

  107. Peter K Avatar

    Thought-provoking reading as always on SNB. A couple of questions:

    Where can we look for useful models of social practice to replace capitalism? I don’t think we’d go for Medieval European feudalism, but are there pre-capitalist Western systems that might be useful? Are traditional/tribal/indigenous societies useful models? I’m not suggesting that any of these could simply replace capitalism, but are there particular practices we could learn from?
    How do we replace capitalism? Armed struggle? Permanent revolution? Creating smaller communities that reflect better practice albeit still existing within a larger capitalist system? (Didn’t hippy communes try this?) What?

    I’m not trying a rhetorical flourish here, I’m genuinely interested in how capitalism might be replaced. One thing occurs to me: does the sheer size of the populations of our social situations (nation states) work against a truly just society? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Plato et al were working with much smaller populations in mind when discussing social systems – numbering in the thousands, rather than the millions. (And, no, I’m not at all suggesting that Plato had the right answers.)

  108. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    The Spectral Discourse is clearly a very useful framework for analysis. Thanks for describing it as you do. Parts of this post should be self-explanatory, but other parts will probably benefit from having read that article.

    I will use the word “Subject” for the S with the strikethrough so as to avoid having to figure out how to do that in this blog text format.

    We clearly have a lot of these Discourses here in play here.

    Let me try my new hand at this and see what you think of my preliminary efforts.

    S1: Glenn Wallis (et al.?)
    Subjects: SNB readers
    S2: The description of the problem of Sufficiency and benefits of non-Sufficiency.
    a: a firm and emancipatory conviction and establishment in non-Sufficiency as refuge.

    Regarding Sufficiency and non-Sufficiency, to demonstrate the principle of non-Sufficiency of a person, group, or teaching, what are the criteria? By what specific Signs might we judge that non-Sufficiency has been established? Is referencing other traditions and bodies of knowledge to fill in admitted gaps and weaknesses in an x-Buddhist tradition sufficient to qualify as non-Sufficiency? Is explicitly admitting non-Sufficiency sufficient to qualify as non-Sufficient? Or, is non-Sufficiency unattainable, as, if one is associated with x-Buddhism in any way, yet excluding those who currently criticize x-Buddhism and claim to be non-Buddhists, will one necessarily be judged to believe in Sufficiency regardless of straightforward evidence to the contrary? How did the final arbiters (SNB tribe) of non-Sufficiency gain their credentials, and by what authority (S1) do they claim their position to judge? By what criteria were they judged to be established non-Sufficient? Also, if any of them claim that SNB’s methods are Sufficient to reach emancipation from the fundamental problem of x-Buddhism, does that disqualify them the attainment of non-Sufficiency? If one even admits being beholden to multiple Masters, doesn’t that in some way automatically qualify as an admission that each of those masters was non-Sufficient, and so qualify the Subject as being established in non-Sufficiency? Can any of us in this multi-faceted society truly be certain we are perfectly beholden to only one S1 Master? If not, isn’t non-Sufficiency thus proven in all cases? I realize that a Spectrum of non-Sufficiency might be invoked here to get around the question and proof, but non-Sufficiency is not typically operationalized this way. Are there specific criteria for bands or hues of non-Sufficiency and so form a new “a” staircase to replace the single “a” plateau?

    Similarly:

    S1: Glenn Wallis
    Subjects: SNB readers
    S2: The description of x-Buddhism and non-Buddhism
    a: a firm and emancipatory conviction and establishment in non-Buddhism as refuge and so be saved from x-Buddhism.

    In this Discourse of the Master, the prize is non-Buddhism, and the problem to be solved is x-Buddhism. What are the criteria for properly calming non-Buddhism and being freed from x-Buddhism? How can one judge for one’s self and know for certain that non-Buddhism has been attained?

    S1: Glenn Wallis
    Subjects: SNB readers
    S2: The description of The Great Feast as opposed to the non-Great Feast.
    a: finally joining the Great Feast and abandoning the non-Great Feast.

    In this Discourse of the Master, how will a Subject know when they have attained to the Great Feast? How will they truly know that the de-regencied Buddhists who seem such a key ingredient of the dreamed of Great Feast have arrived, and that the Great Feast promised has truly occurred? Specifically, how many Great Feasts have occurred so far, if such a thing can be counted, and have faux-Great Feasts occurred that didn’t realize they were not true Great Feasts? How can one judge for certain that one hasn’t been to a faux-Great Feast? How did the criteria for Great Feast vs faux-Great Feast vs non-Great Feast get established, and to what peer review and criticism have they been subjected?

    I could similarly turn the lens the other way around, but mixing in some of the above so as to make it more relevant to our discussions:

    S1: Thervada Buddhism and its various commentaries and extensions
    Subjects: Theravada Buddhists and non-Theravada Buddhists interested in their technologies and in gaining further insights into their own experience
    S2: reproducible stages of insight brought on by straightforward techniques that involving paying attention to ordinary experience
    a: eventually increased clarity, resolution, stability, and precision of mind regarding ordinary experience after possibly going through some also predictable rough spots along the way

    Given that we have some actual hard neurophenomenological science and reproducible experiments that can support some of the claims by S1 in S2 that “a” in this case is actually attainable by Subjects, how can we know that this is or isn’t part of the Great Feast, or that it is, in fact, a non-Great Feast, or a faux-Great Feast? How can be arbitrators of this judgement call be sure they are qualified to make the judgement? If some Subjects feel they have arrived at a true-Great Feast and true-non-Sufficiency by utilizing methods outside of x-Buddhism and judging x-Buddhism according to some non-x-Buddhist criteria, how can those who weren’t at that Great Feast know for certain that it wasn’t truly a Great Feast?

    Is it possible that the raving Discourses of the Hysteric that arise from those Theravada and non-Theravada Subjects above who doubt the claims of the S1 Master Glenn Wallis and his Subjects and doubt that his Subjects have sufficient capacity to be sure they are always perfectly accurate in their claims that the non-Sufficiency and true-Great Feast that the Subjects of the Theravada S1 DoM claim they have attained are actually instead faux-Great Feasts and faux-non-Sufficiency have some actual validity? (If you got all the way through that sentence and it made sense on the first try, my hat is off to you.) If Subjects who believe they have actually participated at various Great Feasts and have attained to actual non-Sufficiency are not actually able to judge that they have in fact attended various Great Feasts and attained to actual non-Sufficiency, isn’t that assumption basically a perfect S1 master-play?

    S1: Glenn Wallis
    Subjects: non-Buddhists and aspiring non-Buddhists
    S1: posits a Real, a Real that cannot be attained by x-Buddhists, but can only be attained by non-Buddhists
    a: the attainment of non-Buddhism so as to attain the Real

    S1: Theravada Buddhism
    Subjects: Theravada Buddhists and non-Theravada Buddhists interested in Theravada Buddhists technologies
    S2: describes a direct, clear sensate experience of your four foundations of Mindfulness (body, aspects of pleasant/neutral/painful, feelings, and all other qualities of experience) as opposed to a lack of direct, clear experience of all of those aspects of your actual life
    a: the attainment of that direct sensate experience of your whole actual life.

    What, according to S1 Glenn Wallis, are the key differentiating characteristics that differentiate the Real from the direct, immediate clarity of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, meaning all of one’s experience in all aspects described by the S1 of Theravada Buddhism? How can S1 Glenn Wallis know for certain that the Real he describes is not what is described as the actual, immediate experience of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness? How can one know for certain that one has attained to the Real rather than the non-Real, or the faux-Real? What is special about the Real that puts it outside of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness?

    Does The Real have the same potential to become something exalted, unattainable, Other, Removed from the direct experience of our body, pain, pleasure, neutrality, feelings, and all other aspects of experience by being contrasted so strongly with the goals of some aspects of x-Buddhism? As such, do Subjects of the S2 of the Real risk falling into the very traps the teaching of the Real is designed to save them from, just as the Four Foundations of Mindfulness and the supposed attainment of Direct Experience of those foundations can create in x-Buddhists? How can one be certain that one description is superior to the other and more free of this potential trap? Where is the Scientific Proof that would lend savor to such a Great Feast? If certain Subjects, caught on the horns of this dilemma, decide for themselves that one or the other, in their experience, seems to work better for them, can those outside of them be certain that they know that they are wrong in their subjective judgement of efficacy? Is the asking of that sort of question sufficient to qualify the asker for the attainment of non-Sufficiency? Is the asking of that question sufficient to qualify as an attempt to grow something from the ashes left from that critical process?

    Oh, yes:

    S1: Glenn Wallis
    Subject: Those reading Glenn’s works
    S2: Growing beautiful things from ashes from the Ruins of Buddhist Real
    a: getting to enjoy the beautiful things grown

    What are the criteria for ashes and the beautiful things grown from them? Who is qualified to judge what are the ashes and what has grown from them? If some on the SNB site, for example, are certain that sufficient ashes haven’t yet been produced and that sufficient beautiful things haven’t been grown from them, how can they be sure? Are they themselves just setting themselves up as Masters yet again, as taught by their Master? If they find themselves in that role, is there any Hysterical Subject within them that is uncomfortable with that Master designation?

    Are the discomforts felt by the Hysteric Subjects as they try to resolve these curious but apparent contradictions with yet striking similarities between various S1 Masters in their quest for meaning and wholeness pointing to anything valid? How can they be certain that that discomfort itself isn’t at once the Real and also the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, as it contains feelings in the body and other senses, qualities of pain, emotions, and mind states/consciousness/the contents of the mind, etc? Did they need that discomfort resulting from these hyper-specialized dialogues of abstract concepts relayed by Masters to actually feel the Real, or could they have just felt the Real? If both are possibly true, can such questions by a Hysterical Subject or even a Hysterical Master (can such a thing exist? a key question…) be used as evidence of non-Sufficiency and thus non-Buddhism? If not, why not? Can we truly trust one if they say, “No, I am not experiencing the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, I am experiencing the Real!” Or, “No, I am not experiencing the Real, I am experiencing the Four Foundations of Mindfulness?” Can we be certain they are aware of and can perfectly operationalize whatever key differences exist? Can we be certain that even the articulations of concepts of possible key differences between them isn’t itself a serious impediment to the experience of the one or the other or both (or neither?)?

    For each of these questions, if S1 Glenn Wallis defers back up the chain of hierarchy, saying he is just a Subject, not the true S1 Master, and Lacan and Laruelle and the like are the Real Masters producing the S2 bodies of knowledge he presents, is that not just attempting to turn a Discourse of the Master to a Discourse of the University, which just hides Master status, as Lacan claims?

    S1: Lacan
    Subject: Those reading Lacan who believe they have been subjugated by Masters, Universities, and the Subjects that help them as police
    S2: Analytical and inquisitive methods that produce new Analysts, hopefully, rather than new Masters who produce new Subjects?
    a: Mastery of Analysis as an ability and an ethos for the benefit of all Beings, I mean other Subjects, that creates knowledgable, empowered non-Subjects who are not even subject to Lacan yet who agree with him and have attained to the pinnacle of the path of Lacan

    The key question is, how can be be sure that those who claim to be Analysts, those who claim to wish to empower others to see for themselves through their own examination of life, experience, and philosophy, are not really Masters in disguise? How can we be sure that those who designate Master vs Agent are themselves perfectly qualified to judge? Who certifies them as judges? Is merely calming to wish for people to be empowered through a Discourse of the Analyst enough, or is attempting to engage in a Discourse of the Analyst enough, or are those who were Subjects in that Discourse of the Analyst claiming to themselves become Analysts rather than Subjects enough, or does it take special, SNB-designated agents to determine what a true Discourse of the Analyst is and who has truly emerged from that process as a true Analyst? Must a Discourse of the Analyst also involve policing those who would subvert this process to turn it into dismissal and distortion of the message of would-be Analysts or true-Analysts, and, if so, is there sufficient policing of the attempts at Discourses of the Analyst here, on the SNB site, that truly and reproducibly protects true Discourses of the Analyst?

    S1: Lacan transmitted through Glenn Wallis (as quoted below in S2)
    Subject: Those reading Lacan who value Lacan’s opinion
    S2: the articulation of the concept of “unmanipulated desire” which must be attained to restore health in a way that “traverses the fantasy” that there was everything decisive to be known at all
    a: a health in which health itself is a fantasy that might not be possible

    Glenn clearly feels he is a meta-Expert, a meta-Master, qualified to judge who is an Analyst from who is an Apologist, who is able to provide “unmanipulated desire” and who is not, who is able to “traverse the fantasy” and who is not, who is a mere Master. Is Glenn then an Analyst or a Master in his meta-Mastery? Is Glenn sure he can judge which he is, and, if such designations are socially constructed (ouch), then is his role as Analyst or Master instead intersubjectively determined by each individual interaction? If this is the case of all Analyst/Master situations, then perhaps should we have a measurable scale for this, an Analyst/Master ratio of relationships to be determined by the number of those who find any Analyst/Master in the Analyst role to the number who instead relate to them as Masters? If so then perhaps we should work to scientifically develop scales and validated instruments to determine Analyst/Master status for each person coming into contact with the works of those in Analyst/Master roles so that we can all be scored as to the degree to which we induce Analyst/Subject relationships rather than Master/Subject relationships, thus adding a degree of mastery of this dimension of analysis.

    If he is sure he knows that those he lists in the last part of section 3 of the Spectral Discourse are truly beholden to Sufficiency despite their protests, and not understanding non-Sufficiency, that they are truly x-Buddhists, not non-Buddhists, that they are truly promising fantasy even as they state things like the fact that the planet is burning and Buddhism won’t be able to save it, even as they search far and wide outside of Buddhism for answers, even as they attempt to subject Buddhism and its claims to scientific, anthropological, linguistic, historical, and philosophical analysis, even as they admit their own flawed humanity, call for the development of systems that do not yet exist, admit failures and mistakes, and invite others to try various experiments for themselves and systematize their own results in their own words, etc. yet, in Glenn’s judgement, they cannot possibly be what they claim, and he knows for certain that they truly believe in Sufficiency yet truly need a non-Sufficiency they do not yet possess, truly are x-Buddhists, yet truly need to become non-Buddhists to restore their health and free them from delusion in a way that they have not attained, does this truly qualify as meeting Lacan’s definition of the Analyst or Master who knows the secrets they lack, as often claimed by others on this site as well? (Yes, that is one sentence.)

    I really appreciated the section towards the end which talked about astrologers and astronomers talking past each other, and the line, “My point is that we should not discount the possibility that, all good intentions and friendly decorum aside, we just might not be making sense to one another.”

    It may be that the SNB aesthetic, while superficially similar to my own, is, in crucial ways, just too different, and so we just end up talking past each other despite hopefully honest attempts to do otherwise. Will the circulation of thought that occurs in these Discourses of the Incommensurable still lead to the beneficial changes expected? I hope so.

    I also very much appreciate the quote and awareness that, “No matter how cordially a dialogue might unfold, at its very heart is a struggle for institutional power and ideological supremacy.” If that is true in some absolute sense, is the dream of the Discourse of the Analyst even possible, or must we make do with the flawed and messy collision of Masters, Subjects, Universities, and faux-Analysts — must we make do with the Real?

    In that vein, and following this injunction in favor of Polemics, “The point, rather, is to take the other’s views absolutely seriously, treating them with the highest respect. Such respect calls for the interlocutors to undergo a certain minimal process: (i) a charitable hearing of an interlocutor’s argument; (ii) a rigorous response to that argument; and (iii) a vigorous defense contra the response.” Hopefully, in this, at least, I can reasonably be accused of taking these points to heart and attempting my best to follow the prescribed polemic path.

    Last question from me in this post: how comfortably can we simultaneously hold the concept of “detail fetish” with the concept of “rigorous response to that argument” in the same mind?

    The remaining paragraphs that end that essay are true gold, so, rather than quote them here and this discourage the reading of the whole thing, I hope that readers will in fact, click this link https://speculativenonbuddhism.com/2016/04/18/spectral-discourse/ in his post and see what is there, as, while we may disagree often, at least we share that same spirit of passionate engagement.

    Ok, now I seriously need to get back to the scientific study of meditation phenomenology and their clinical applicability, but this has been fun. Best wishes to you all! -Daniel

  109. Danny Avatar

    Hi Peter K,
    “how capitalism might be replaced?”
    Not to sound prescriptive but one possible answer to that question is the focus of an excellent book by Martin Hagglund, a densely argued critique of capitalism (and religion); This Life, Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom–and what its replacement might look like in the form of a democratic socialism. Most importantly, he argues for how we might get there. I’d highly recommend it.

  110. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    One more gem that has so many resonances with this conversation, from anarchism and communist utopianism, from passionate argument to the struggle for the Real, that I hardly know where to start. It was written and translated by the man I meet in London this afternoon. https://web.archive.org/web/20180205215823/http://publicdomainreview.org/collections/every-society-invents-the-failed-utopia-it-deserves

  111. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    It is a fiction, but a good one.

  112. Chadette Piper Avatar
    Chadette Piper

    This is better Daniel, a bit less neurotic.

    I wouldn’t describe the tactic here as of detail fetish or “exemplificative braggadocio”, but it does the character of braggadocio, and the grandiosity that fits with your personality type. It’s more “shock and awe”. Because your comment is long and multi-faceted (and off-topic), who has the time and inclination to respond to it? Who can respond to it, really, other than Glenn. So you dump your pay load, so to speak, and sign off with that you are off to do something more important/better. I can play his game, by his rules even!! I can mention Lacan, use his funny language and complicated sentences as well! And I can win! Because no-one can really respond to all this, you can walk away, confident in victory, with no change in your beliefs, vindicated, schooling everyone, including both the alpha-dog Glenn and his low status underlings, with your superior intellect and verbosity, just like you schooled poor mentally ill Failed Buddhist, who dared say something wrong on the internet (please, can someone help that man…)

    That said, I think there are some good points, and worth responding to, though I mostly disagree with it. Perhaps with a bit of tidying up it could work as blog post.

  113. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    Not walking away in the big sense, as you claim, just had to go then, and do need to refocus to some degree on my other projects, as I am sure you can understand in some ordinary human way, for, as mentioned above by someone who complained that I had the time and interest to respond here, we do have other aspects to lives, including me, so sorry for the confusion.

    It is interesting to see you focus on my personal aspects almost exclusively and your meta-impressions of what I did rather than any of the ideas, even as you state there might be some good points in there, but perhaps that is really what this place is about after all, and not about the ideas as it claims? Shall I take your response as an example of how best to interface with this culture here? Is talking about the Real, the Great Feast, non-Buddhism, and non-Sufficiency and how those relate to the Spectral Discourse’s methods and points off topic if those were all topics raised in this thread, and Glenn even asked me the specific question about what Discourses I thought were going on here? Forgive me if I don’t share your exact views about what the primary topics here were. Perhaps you view the primary topics as about communism and psychology?

    If so, then I didn’t see Glenn focusing so much on those either, and instead focused mostly on power, which I also see as a key issue. Where is the criticism of him in the same way? Also, you will find this is now my third post since my response, and Glenn has posted zero posts since, which I don’t mind at all, actually, as taking the time to think through a response or even to not respond are all obvious perfectly reasonable options for a free poster to do as they please, but it is interesting that you didn’t notice Glenn’s silence, only my mentioning of having to go then, and ignored my other two posts, which should have clearly indicated my going was of a relatively fleeting nature. Again, there is clear bias here, and clear home court, home team, tribal advantage, which is understandable, as, were Glenn to show up at the DhO, the same phenomenon would almost certainly occur, which would also be unfortunate but likely unavoidable.

    I, for one, didn’t feel that sense of, “The point, rather, is to take the other’s views absolutely seriously, treating them with the highest respect. Such respect calls for the interlocutors to undergo a certain minimal process: (i) a charitable hearing of an interlocutor’s argument; (ii) a rigorous response to that argument; and (iii) a vigorous defense contra the response,” that is promised in the Spectral Discourse. Instead, I got what I perceive as the reverse. Not only do the criteria of the Great Feast of Ideas free of biases and full of equity, with Feasters judged solely on the merits of their ideas, the quality of their rhetoric, and their willingness to participate in the process, not hold up well to reality testing here, neither do the Polemic injunctions of the Spectral Discourse essay and the pithy and wise insights at its end. Zero for two so far. One criticism you can fairly level at me — I truly do not yet get this place.

    I felt that, in my post, I was examining the “ends” mentioned in the beginning of this post — the Real, the non-, and the like, and how they contrast with other definitions of Pragmatic outcomes, as well as responding directly to Glenn’s points using his own language and taking his ideas very seriously. In this practice of the Polemic Ideals, am I so reprehensible?

    If the administrators who own this site agree with you, that this thread, despite its beginnings and title, is mostly about psychology and communism or other topics, which are all fine topics, then the easy tech fix is just to split threads and repost discussions in more coherent argument-response patterns, and, I agree, that might make for more coherent thread reading and topic coherence.

    Curiously, I suspect you also didn’t read the article I posted a link to, which is long, I admit, but it is very much in the spirit of revolution, power to the people, discuses Communes, discusses anarchy, discusses human needs, wealth allocation, and various Utopian theories at some length. It is also a great story, or at least I think it is, and makes some brilliant meta-points about revolution and the social and historical contexts they find themselves in. It also is a potent piece of Feminist writing.

    It may be you just see your role here as someone who just keeps kicking, and perhaps I should just get used to that, but I must admit it does grate and disappoint a bit at times, as you keep hinting that you have so much more depth that you are not sharing, so I invite you to share it.

  114. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    Oh, yes, speaking of engaging with ideas and Polemic ideals, if you would be so kind as to differentiate Polemics from “shock and awe” such that one relatively new to this site’s ideals and cultural taboos can know how to not cross that dangerous line, that would be most helpful, particularly if you can use clear, applicable criteria that one can use to judge one’s post before posting it. Perhaps a firm upper limit on the number of ideas addressed in a post, or the number of questions answered, or the number of questions asked?

    Thanks!

  115. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    Also, the notion that “no-one can really respond to all this” is perhaps not so charitable to your fellow SNB dwellers? Curiously, I give them more credit than you. I would be amazed if at least some portion of them weren’t fully capable, if they wished, to respond to respond to all of this. That is obviously no obligation, and “letting it go”, as those pesky x-Buddhists often reflexively spout in dogmatic twitches, might not be so crazy after all, at least in this case.

  116. Chadette Piper Avatar
    Chadette Piper

    Hi Daniel,

    Sorry for not being more charitable – your first post left a certain taste which has influenced my replies still. But in fairness to you, FB did “start it”, as he went personal, and hence this sets a tone, which can colour things.

    And in terms of “this place” – I think it is too much anarchy for that to mean much, and little that unites those that post here. Don’t take what I say as anything representative of SNB in any way. There is no tribe of Wallis followers. Perhaps what unites is just some disenfranchisement with x-buddhism, but no shared ideals or politics. But Glen lets anyone post here so… I can’t really say anything about taboos and cultural ideas. I can offer the view that the blog is in a “Phase 2”. Phase 1 was the primarily focused on x-buddhist critique and birthing SNB ideas and tools. There was a hiatus (Glenn writing a book?), and I think it is in Phase 2, which is more about building from the ruins, community building, creative possibilities. And hence I think your energy and creativity could lead to fertile grounds.

    Not reprehensible! And to call you narcissistic is not necessarily pejorative. It can lead to great things.

    I think your post was really valuable and hence my suggestion it is worthy of a blog post in its own right, given the quantity of ideas and quality and to provoke some dedicated discussion of its own. But that’s just me.

    I didn’t read the article, sorry.

    I don’t have that much more depth than pop psychology! But your post did provoke some thinking. If I can condense like so, to identify one particular fault line, which seems to the main one.

    DI:
    S1: Glenn Wallis
    Subjects: non-Buddhists and aspiring non-Buddhists
    S1: posits a Real, a Real that cannot be attained by x-Buddhists, but can only be attained by non-Buddhists
    a: the attainment of non-Buddhism so as to attain the Real

    You (and some others) have the belief that you have tools can allow you direct unmediated access to the “Real”. For example, something like this statement that you make “the attainment of that direct sensate experience of your whole actual life.”

    With such a belief, you quite understandably take issue with Wallis claiming the authority to invalidate your claim to the Real, and barring you from your rightful place at the Great Feast, and hence you argue to revoke his warrant. And most of your discourses seem to revolve around this point.

    But as I see it, Wallis does not claim that the Real can be obtained by non-Buddhists. He might say, and I would agree, that the Real cannot be obtained by anyone. We cannot directly experience the Real. Instead, we can only can experience symbols of the Real. These are just pointers. And x-buddhism has it’s own particular way of then distorting things. You have the book, so can read all about he says about that.

    So I would say you don’t see things like the “Four Foundations of Mindfulness” as a theory of the Real, and not seeing it as a theory means you don’t get invited to the Feast.

    DI: “What is special about the Real that puts it outside of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness?”

    Quite…so it depends on how you define the Real. But I think you and Glenn have a different conception of it, and hence the fault line. But probably like Glenn, I don’t see phenomenology allowing any kind of privileged access to it.

  117. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    Dear Piper,

    Ok, that’s a lot more to work with in some ways. Thanks for that and your other kind words.

    Revoke his warrant, yes, perhaps. I just want to be sure that, if he has such a warrant, that such a warrant is rightly earned and deserved.

    I want to get this straight before I continue: The Real cannot be obtained by anyone? The Real cannot be directly experienced? The Real is experienced only by symbols?

    I nearly launched into a Daniel-style explosion of text, but then I paused, which hopefully you will appreciate, and will simply ask a few questions before such a potential eruption occurs:

    1) If the Real is unobtainable, then is there truly a Real?
    2) If the Real is unobtainable, how does anyone know how to talk about a Real?
    3) Is all of life merely symbolic? I ask as, the relationship between symbols and the Real and then “ordinary life” would seem a key part of this ontology.
    4) If life is only symbolic, or if the Real can only be known through symbols, why is the thought “the Real” not the same as the Real?
    5) Were a person continuously repeating the mantra “the Real”, and visualizing some symbol of “the Real”, or perhaps visualizing the letters “t h e R e a l” would that person thus, at least in those moments, attain the Real?
    6) Can a Platonic ideal “Real” exist if no actual “Real” can be experienced or found in experience? In short, are there truly existing orphaned Platonic ideals that have lost their Real counterparts, in this case literally?

    Clearly I see the Four Foundations of Mindfulness in many ways, from an arbitrary set of designations that artificially divide experience, or create a Problem, in some Laruellian way, to straightforward pointers to ordinary experience in some Hume-esque way, to a tool that might be useful to some and problematic to others in some Pragmatic way, to something that, it would seem, would have to have some relationship to the Real that could be explored, hence my numerous questions about that.

    How do other forum posters and readers see the relationship between the Real and the Four Foundations of Mindfulness? If we are incapable of having some working definitions of those and how they may or may not relate to each other as frameworks or theories, then it does make discussion of them difficult if not impossible, Feast invite or no.

  118. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    If I am uninvited to the Great Feast due to my various possible relationships to concepts such as the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, forgive me if I build a bonfire on your lawn, roast food on it, and dance around it singing my own songs of joy and delight.

  119. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    I can’t believe I missed the opportunity to instead write, “… that such a warrant is warranted.” Damn!

  120. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    In reference to reals, how can you ever really know what’s on the other side of your perception? A bit more abstractly, what’s real that isn’t consistent? In a very real sense, perception limits our view by way of preference for continuity. I think this holds true for abstract social symbol systems as well but I’m mainly just referencing the fuzziness of sensory perception.

    Perhaps somewhat related, in an earlier post you had mentioned something about explicit meanings. Can meanings really be explicit? Or are they necessarily a property of interactions with others? Could meanings maybe even be artifacts of a search for threads of consistency between the actors involved in their interactive dance through life? You can certainly conjure an intentional meaning in language or action or whatever but that is rather local to your view of things at the time.

  121. Paula Burns Avatar
    Paula Burns

    This is a valuable thread but becoming very dense and a fast moving so just going to throw out a few questions/thoughts without addressing anyone directly.

    Firstly – having gone through the process of critique (enabled by disabling the principle of sufficient x) then engaging with a required supplement (for example Marxism) is there a danger at this point that we produce another unitary system and is this danger why it’s stated that ‘the process should not be understood dialectically?’ Please could you define ‘dialectically’. As this seems to be the point where Decision is made what are the elements (ideologically, psychologically, etc) involved – are we always somehow involved in an x system? If so how do we avoid this?

    The above brings me to the discussion on a ‘Master’ discourse (thank you for your comments Daniel which I found interesting and helpful). I can see that it’s maybe useful to extrapolate from Lacan but as his work is extremely difficult/often contradictory, and takes a great deal of time/hard mental labour to be in a position to even partially understand, at best we end up with so many ‘interpretations’ of Lacan. It could be said that this is to succumb to the mystique of another ‘Master’ discourse that of the ‘interpreter’ or ‘one who thinks he knows’. In psychoanalysis (a very different platform) this ‘desire’ hopefully gets works through – but in intellectual life must harder – as we spend most of our time reading secondary texts rather than getting to grips with the original and forming our own thoughts.

    (For anyone interested Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont’s book ‘Intellectual Imposters’ has an interesting critque of Lacan’s muddled use of the mathematics of ‘topography’ which is central to his work.)

    So – regarding the Real (always remembering that Lacan refused static interpretations of his terms. We are indebted to the commentaries of Jacques-Alain Miller who includes an entry on the Real in his translation notes to Ecrits. I would recommend reading this.) I love the way the Real is termed an algebreic x – those pesky x’s are everywhere it seems 😉

    I think its a good thing to find our own personal language, metaphors, whatever, to try and express what can’t be spoken. Re the Real – paint it, dance it, sing it, write a poem, just give a shout or a moan. Laugh!

    The notion of the Sublime says it better to me than Lacan.

    Does the Real have parity with ‘the immediate clarity of the Four Fundamentals of Mindfullness?’ Assuming the Real just is – there’s nothing to attain. Its not a method/technique. Its like an electric fence of shock, fear, awe, terror, magnifence, we keep bumping into. Its so uncomfortable at times we want to be thrown the other side of that electric fence – transcendence?
    Isn’t that in a nutshell what all this discussion is about?

    Enough words – I’ve made reams of notes/questions but think it would be good to consolidate this discussion more. So many comments – can’t see that number on any other threads?

  122. Chadette Piper Avatar
    Chadette Piper

    In answer to Daniel’s question, the specific concept of “the Real” is from Laurelle. I don’t think I understand it well enough to explain it. It is pretty central to Glenn’s book though.

    Yes, talking about it with definitions is tricky. It is especially tricky if you don’t have a graduate degree in the humanities/philosophy. Which most people don’t have. Glenn does though. That is power!

    I have tried to understand “the Real” but I think it is difficult without that a solid grounding in philosophy and the history of ideas. This is a quick summary of what I came up with, which is my own take:

    Kant came along, and said that there is thing, the world/universe, filled with stuff, noumena, thing-in-themselves, which exist but we can’t know them directly. Because our experience actively structures reality, we can’t really speak of the them aside from our experiences. This leads to a rather human centred perspective, which I suspect is associated with the development of “humanism”. Science did what science does, and ignored philosophy, taking the position of realism. The world is real and science is able to provide a 3rd person knowledge of it. But realism became very unfashionable in philosophy post-Kant. Meillassoux dubbed this post-Kantian perspective as “correlationism”.

    Recently, realism has become cool again, at least in particular small corner of the world, with the rise of “speculative realism”, with a bunch of philosophers coming up with their own solutions to fixing correlationism and embracing some form of realism. One of these specularists was Brassier, who applied Laurelle’s non-philosophy to the problem (along with some ancededents in Lacan and Badiou).

    In the most part, society and the humanities have not kept up all that well with the “scientific image of man”, particularly that developed in the last 30-40 years of cognitive science. Despite its recent flirtations with science, x-buddhism has co-opted standard western liberal capitalist ideology in its vision of man, and taken on the norms of humanism, such as its ethical framework. This provides some comfort to us mortal beings. Pragmatic Dharma, which is idealist in orientation, fits with this. But if you move to embrace realism, then you might end up with is an anti-humanism, where we are not the centre of the universe, but just some meat-bags on a rock floating around a star.

    Glenn suggests that “Buddha(tm)” was properly hardcore (in a way that Hardcore Dharma isn’t, because it flinches away from “the Real”), and there are concepts in Buddhism which are “anti-humanist”. And some of which are potentially in accord with “the scientific image of man” (for example, anatman). If we want to embrace realism, rather than retreat from it, then these concepts are really worth grappling with to understand our place in the world.

    I would suggest that you don’t want to embrace realism, and hence are perfectly fine to dance around the lawn and being merry. Which does’t sound all that bad, actually (though there is that issue of the world burning…)

  123. Paula Burns Avatar
    Paula Burns

    Thanks Chadette – now I would appreciate Glenn explaining the difference between Laruelles ‘the One’ and Lacan’s ‘Real’ relating to quote from a potted version taken from Stanford site ”The One of the real then, is absolutely unknowable.’

    Also get confused by ‘Real’ (capital) and ‘real ‘ – ‘realism’.

  124. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    Ok, given that it appears the we have the freedom to adopt lots of various conceptual frameworks, lots of various possible ontologies, lots of possible ways of addressing the question of the Real and other similar questions, and given that we appear to have a great abundance of frameworks by some very smart cookies available to us, how can one decide which is best?

    Said another way, what is The Core Problem one is trying to solve, and how can one best judge how possible conceptual frameworks, terms, words, definitions, and the like facilitate solving it? I short, what can Pragmatism teach us about making good choices in these regards, as it does appear that we have to choose. Or, if non-choosing, as opposed to x-choosing, is the best choice, how can we know that for certain? If we x-choose non-choosing for Pragmatic reasons, is that still an x-choice? Can we ever truly escape Pragmatism? If so, are all our choices in these regards x-choices, not non-choices? If so, are all our definitions of the Real just x-Reals, not non-Reals?

    Further, give me solid evidence from the real lives and real experiences of real Pragmatic Dharma practitioners, whatever those are, that they truly miss the Real or flinch away from the Real? I can only speak with the most certainty from my own life and experience, so I ask: Was working some 20,000+ hours in one of the busiest and most fast-paced, tertiary care emergency departments in the world flinching away from the Real? If so, prove that. Was sitting for thousands of hours just facing my own experience very directly and without armor, even often with an explicit focus on suffering (as well as joy, as well as tranquility, as well as doubt, etc.) to the greatest degree that I could possibly find it and with the greatest degree of honesty humanity I was capable of, flinching away from the Real?

    I will grant you that Buddhism contains many life-denying aspects, and those I consider grossly unfortunate, and have tried, to the degree that I am able, to cut down and throw off every single one I have been able to identify, attempting to just keep those aspects that really do focus on what I can know for myself directly and honestly in this actual human life to the degree that we can know anything directly. How can we know who has a sufficient warrant to judge whose practice is truly life denying. Is one who posits that the Real is actually unattainable or only in the realm of symbol and abstraction similarly guilty of life-denying ideals?

    Also, how would one compare Hume and his sense of what we could reasonably know to The Real? Where do the concepts and practices of Empiricism and the Real overlap or diverge? In all honesty, if one Kan’t know the Real directly, what good is it? (You can’t know the sheer, visceral delight writing that last sentence caused me.)

  125. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    On a totally different tangent, and an attempt at triangulating on meanings and conventions using different methods and from different angles both cultural and experiential, are there any psychonauts here, and, if so, how are those sorts of experiences compared, contrasted, or related to the Real?

  126. Chadette Piper Avatar
    Chadette Piper

    DI: How to decide which framework is best?

    I think my tongue in cheek answer is the one that fits best with our pre-existing political views. We can’t have post-modernism, that is for sure, as we need to know that we are right and others are wrong.

    DI asks: “what is the place really about?”

    At one level, this is a place where Glenn and co. can signal their moral and intellectual superiority to others (note this is what all humans do all the time). Part of this is the politics, of forming an in-group and out-group, and demonising the out-group. In your original response to FB, you called bullshit on that, and put yourself in the in-group. For example, through potentially shared political views, claiming (in some objective sense) that you are at least a moral equal, and probably a superior (working in profit free hospitals to relieve suffering etc…). Your long post signals some kind of intellectual equality (though you can never be as well read as Glenn…).

    I think you are also calling bullshit on the tendency of leftists in to be more interested in ideas than reality and people, for example, in response to FB, what does this actually mean in practice? And who are these x-buddhists? In the comments thread this also comes up from Paula, who (understandably) took umbrage of being lumped in the “stupid capitalist x-buddhist pig-dog” category, when she had devoted much of her life to reduce “real” suffering (I don’t know if you have the earlier comments, but might be interesting, as there is a bit of push-back on the OP and SNB…).

    I think Glenn would argue that he is deeply concerned with “praxis” – about how beliefs lead to action in the world. But he is an intellectual, and they can get caught up in the world of ideas, ideals and abstractions. In some sense FB’s post is just playing with ideas – that’s why it might be possible to see it as not as an attack but as an exploration.

    DI: “Is one who posits that the Real is actually unattainable or only in the realm of symbol and abstraction similarly guilty of life-denying ideals?”

    Well, yes, quite possibly. I expected this kind of response from your point of view. And I think, it is fair enough. I will leave that one for Glenn…

    Speaking of Glenn, maybe he will pop along in a minute and tell us the ways which we are all wrong, don’t understand SNB properly, say something about cool about auto-poeretic decisional non-homologous codification, and that we should come back when we have done the sufficient homework, bruv.

  127. Glenn Wallis Avatar

    I’m trying to address briefly comments from Ben down to Daniel’s most recent. Paula’s point embodies the gist, I think:

    “Thanks Chadette – now I would appreciate Glenn explaining the difference between Laruelles ‘the One’ and Lacan’s ‘Real’ relating to quote from a potted version taken from Stanford site ”The One of the real then, is absolutely unknowable.’ Also get confused by ‘Real’ (capital) and ‘real ‘ – ‘realism’.”

    Chadette sums it up as well as I can, so maybe go back and read her comment. At the risk of muddling things, here goes. [NB: you can skip this big paragraph, and even the next one, and miss virtually nothing at all.] First, the Real is not reality. From Plotinus on, “the Real/the One” has been used in Western thought as a way to name a domain of human truth that is unrepresentable in any given map of reality, or in what Ben refers to as “abstract social symbol systems.” I find x-buddhism so interesting because it operates in the mode of the Real (Laruelle would say alongside the Real in a unilateral relationship). On examination, however, its “Real” posture inevitably deteriorates into an “x-buddhist” posture, into, that is, an ever-self-positing, self-sufficient, position. Chadette refers to Sellars’s distinction between “the scientific image of man” and “the manifest image of man.” (The latter points to our understanding of ourselves as humans as expressed throughout history via various narrative genres, and which has become ingrained in our self-understanding as this and that “folk conception.”) Tom Pepper often uses Bhaskar’s distinction between the “intransitive” (mind-independent, human-independent) and the “transitive” (mind-dependent, human-dependent) aspects of reality in a similar way. As Chadette says, Meillassoux is working out a post-Kantian, anti-correlationalist, perspective, which aims to dismantle the correlationalist thesis, beginning with Kant and continuing down to the present, that claims the “essential inseparability of the act of thinking from its content.” Brassier’s “transcendental nihilism” is interesting in this regard, both in terms of the distinctions just offered and the idea of the Buddhist Real. (Nihilism is “transcendental” in Meillassoux’s sense of independent from the thought-being correlation.) Brassier argues that philosophy should be slapped with an immediate cease and desist injunction against its efforts to shore up the obvious truth of nihilism (namely, that the cosmos, hence our World, lacks all inherent sense and meaning) and, on the contrary, “embrace it as the truth of reality,” embrace it, that is to say in our terms, as the/a Real. A corollary to Brassier’s position is that the proper use of philosophy is as an “organon of extinction:” philosophy’s value lies precisely in its function as the human thought system par excellence that enables thought around the very (ultimate) extinction that conditions all possibility of thought. Thought, it turns out in this anti-correlationalist move, is coupled not to being, but to non-being (extinction). My book is subtitled Ruins of the Buddhist Real because it makes similar claims. Buddhism’s value lies in its use as an organon of the Real–of, that is, truths that are apparently cooked into material manifestation: the suffering concomitant with sentience, radical contingency, emptiness, perpetual phenomenal dissolution, impermanence, non-substantial social-symbolic self, etc. However, x-buddhism, as x-buddhism, is constitutionally incapable of reflecting back into the world what it, as organon, sees. Instead, it reflects back a vision of itself, of its World. Rather than reflecting a “scientific image,” it reflects a visionary one, indeed the manifest x-buddhist image of the human.

    If all of that was too much for you: Good! Laruelle asks that we stop all of this talk about the Real. All of it, from Plotinus to Lacan to Brassier is waaayyy too philosophical, which is to say simply, philosophical. (The approach proceeds from the complex philosophical “decisions” which already, in advance, have determined how and what we will think about “the Real.”) Laruelle’s approach to “the Real” is “axiomatic” because the philosophical approach, he believes, is as endless as it is indeterminate. So, he suggests, let us indeed assume the Real, and proceed from there. This axiom produces interesting formulations. For example, the philosophical approach allows: x-buddhism → suffering → world. That means: Some x-buddhism makes incursions into the human Real of suffering; divines it; and reflects its divination back into the material world as, moreover, a necessarily sufficient description. The axiomatic, non formulation states, by contrast (starting from the end): World ← x-buddhism ←/ suffering. That means: The Real of human suffering is foreclosed (/) to social-symbolic systems (it can not be sufficiently divined and articulated; hence, the non-philosophical claim of unilaterality); it is in fact the very cause of systems of thought and practice such as x-buddhism, x-philosophy, etc., Daoism, literature, science-fiction, Swedish crust punk, even x-science. When, say, x-buddhism reflects its articulation of suffering, it is doing so not “back into the world” (as science tries real hard to do), but onto a World of its own conjuration. This is why I say that x-buddhism requires supplemental thought if it is to be rigorous rather that hallucinatory. So, really, the following is the decisive formula,:

    World ← dukkha ← x-buddhism ←/ [the Real of] suffering. This means: By all evidence, human suffering is the case regardless of human ideologies, beliefs, hopes, fantasies, etc., etc., to the contrary. That is, human suffering is pervasive, unavoidable, inevitable, etc., hence a “Real.” Because of that fact, a form of thought such as some x-buddhism appears with the aim of articulating the nature of suffering and providing means to escape it or whatever. But because the Real is foreclosed to such decisive incursions (note that to say that is not to take an ontological/epistemological position, but rather an axiomatic one), all x-buddhism can do is ever offer it’s formulation of suffering as precisely dukkha, that is, as an ideologically complex concept bound up in an intricate network of postulation yielding a World, together with a subject who embodies that World.

    And now, I will attempt to go write a song incorporating the phrase “meat-bags on a rock floating around a star.”

  128. Ben Avatar
    Ben

    Speaking of musical analogies, I tend to think there’s a Zappa song for all occasions. It always tends to start with Plastic People though, maybe I’m just cynical.

    I don’t know about assuming “the Real” but I guess it makes for a fun graph!

  129. Chadette Piper Avatar
    Chadette Piper

    I am going to respond again to Daniel, as I see a confusion there.

    “give me solid evidence from the real lives and real experiences of real Pragmatic Dharma practitioners, whatever those are, that they truly miss the Real or flinch away from the Real”…”Was working some 20,000+ hours…flinching away from the Real”…”was sitting for thousands of horus…flinching away from the Real?

    I think a way out of this confusion is to consider immanence vs. transcendence. These terms have a long history, particularly in theology, as the relationship between them can help characterise different religious and spiritual e.g. God can be transcendental to ourselves, exterior to us, or we can have a personal, immanent relation to God.

    The concept of “radical immanence” appears very important to non-philosophy (and others in continental philosophy). Now, I just spent some time googling it, and can’t say I found a good explanation. But I know it is important.

    What you describe in your life of practice and work is an experience of immanence. Spiritual practice typically involves a move towards transcendence. For example, when you write earlier that meditation practice can provide “the attainment of that direct sensate experience of your whole actual life”, my transcendence-o-meter fires up. It points to the idea that meditation transcends normal experience to “direct” experience to the “whole actual” life as opposed to just “life”. My view (I guess also an SNB view) is that meditation is “nothing special”. It is like shitting, sleeping and shagging.

    Glenn describes (following non-philosophy) that there is something about Buddhism which blocks the possibility of “radical immanence”, because it is forever injecting all its buddhistic stuff into the imminent. So flinching in one sense describes the movement away from immanence to transcendence. And I would characterise SNB as generally very anti-transcendence.

    Another take on flinching is described by Glenn (https://speculativenonbuddhism.com/2011/08/26/flinching/) and the promise of a Buddhism that can be more than just a “sop to the pathetic twinge of human self-esteem”. He describes this phrase like so:

    Sop. When Buddhism (and its innumerable variations, hidden and overt) prophesies some sort of final redemption, such as “deep joy,” enlightenment, nirvana, stress relief, and so forth, it is acting like a sop in several senses of the term: it is whetting your appetite; it is drenching you in promises; it is luring, baiting, and bribing you; it is, as my friend James Friel puts it, assuring you that there will be a payoff for your troubles.

    Pathetic . It is deplorable, heartbreaking, lamentable that human beings are baited by sops. Why: because while the sops are empty, human existence, as is, sop-free, is full.

    Twinge. The spasm of wanting-too-much. The throb of this-is-not-enough.

    Human self esteem. We are homo sapiens apes who desire to be gods.

  130. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Peter K:

    Where can we look for useful models of social practice to replace capitalism? I don’t think we’d go for Medieval European feudalism, but are there pre-capitalist Western systems that might be useful? Are traditional/tribal/indigenous societies useful models? I’m not suggesting that any of these could simply replace capitalism, but are there particular practices we could learn from?

    This is the essential question, is it not? I’m no historian, but I’d be wary of looking back in time for a replacement for capitalism. We need to act in ways that do not look back and romanticize some pre-industrial era, but we need practices which are to be developed from the position of taking seriously the world we have now. It’s easier to imagine practices that do not reproduce capitalism than it is to find people willing to commit to such practices. I’m in the dual position at the moment of being desperate for non-capitalist practices (and people willing to commit to them with me), as well as considering the importance of making it clear to others that capitalism is even a problem in the first place. As evidenced by this thread, people will discuss literally anything as long as it’s not our actual social formation. This is a massive problem.

    How do we replace capitalism? Armed struggle? Permanent revolution? Creating smaller communities that reflect better practice albeit still existing within a larger capitalist system? (Didn’t hippy communes try this?) What?

    I’m not sure what you mean by “permanent revolution,” but it’s pretty obvious to me that some kind of revolution is necessary. Do we think that capitalists will wake up one day and decide to hand over the means of production to the proletariat? Of course not. This can only happen through revolution.

    Creating small communities is definitely a good place to start (in fact, it’s the only place we can start). But I don’t follow the reasoning that questions whether the human species is too large to be just. What does exploitation have to do with the number of people participating in society?

  131. Failed Buddhist Avatar

    Looks like blockquotes are malfunctioning again! Fuck it.

  132. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    Dear Piper,

    Ok, your posts are helping me get a better sense of what is going on.

    Help me understand why when I say things that to me sound like imminence, you think transcendence, as that keeps happening, not just with you, but with Parletre and others, and it is confusing to me.

    I deduced to break it down into a framework that, while Buddhist, hopefully is also just human in some way.

    When one says, “physical sensations”, or “walking”, or “breathing”, or “talking”, is that transcendence or imminence?

    When one says, “feelings”, “pain”, “pleasure”, and the like, is that transcendence or imminence?

    When one says, “anger”, “desire”, “clarity”, “irritation”, “restlessness”, and the like, is that transcendence or imminence?

    When one says, “old age”, “sickness”, “grief”, “despair”, “death”, and the like, is that transcendence or imminence?

    If those are “transcendence” for some, and “imminence” for others, what distinguishes those two types of people? Is it something in the experience or something in the interpretation?

    If those things are not imminence, help me understand what is and why those are not. Most people that I know don’t think of those as transcendence, and instead generally use loftier terms for things transcendent. In fact, those are the things that most people I know tend to consider to be the things they might eventually transcend.

    Dear FB,

    As to revolution, I have grown unusually skeptical about its potential, which is tragic, as for years I imagined it was possible and could be good, but, having had long conversations with some ex-military cynical friends of mine about this, I now hold a different view. For most of history, it was reasonable to expect that some army could eventually overpower whomever ruled even the great empires without the planet being turned to a sheet of radioactive glass, but that is not the case now. For most of human history, there was a real possibility that a civilian army or militia could overpower the government, but that is a total pipe dream now, as the weapons that the governments hold are so vastly more powerful than those available to civilians that there is simply no chance whatsoever of success. It is not a question of pulling the AR-15 or whatever from the cold dead fingers of my more, uh, country friends, it is a question that one tank in their neighborhood, holler, trailer park, compound, or whatever would simply demolish them all easily, leaving no fingers left to find, and that’s just a tank. No civilian group is going to hold up against major artillery, attack helicopters, cruise missiles, B2 bombers, laser guided smart bombs, ultrasonic or microwave weapons, or any of that, much less the other nasty toys the government has at its easy disposal, such as chemical, biological, and tactical nuclear weapons. All such notions of real, successful revolution that leads to good outcomes are simply preposterous now.

    Also, the notion that those with lots of money and power will go without a real fight is clearly not true, as we can witness the continuous state of war we have been in now since the early 1990’s. They hardly think twice when they use their staggering power to crush whomever and whatever threatened them, as we see on the daily news feeds.

    Also, in situations of revolution that get bad enough, the military will simply take control of the government. At least in the US, the military is simply unbeatable, so one would have to hope for the peaceful transition of power back to a civil government, but this is far from assured, as history shows us clearly. Further, the nightmare scenario is for the country to fragment and so the military fragment. At that point, we are simply fucked, as the damage that some reasonable proportion of the US military going up against some other reasonable proportion of the US military would leave in its wake would be catastrophic. Further, that raises the possibility of nuclear weapons being used in a civil war, which is basically a hard endpoint for civilization and most life on the planet.

    What sort of revolution do you see being possible that might reasonably accomplish your goals without there being a very high chance that either we just end up with a military dictatorship that is unoverthrowable or a civil war that is apocalyptic? I ask this as a serious question.

    Dear Glenn,

    May you flap and twitch your meat well and produce great music thereby. Please post it somewhere if and when you are up for it.

    Dear All,

    Ok, this is cool. Imagine that, through concepts and ideas, we could actually escape the suffering of the Real and create a World, as Glenn says the x-Buddhists are capable. Here’s the solution: FB: just become an x-Buddhist, as they appear to have spectacular World-creating powers, and then create the post-revolutionary World as you idealize it! Yay, problem solved! Who knew it was that easy? 😉

  133. danielmingram Avatar
    danielmingram

    I realize that this thread has gone on so long that most have probably lost some interest, and few will make it this far, but was just this weekend at a conference at Cardiff University in Wales with a mix of academic disciplines, including anthropologists, linguists, social scientists, neuroscientists, psychiatrists, ethnographers, religious scholars, historians of science, and some others, with the topic of discussion being the interdisciplinary study of meditation and its various effects. Many topics were raised that seemed relevant to this site, so I post this here.

    During the conference, Dr. Ayesha Nathoo, who critically studies medicine in the media, gave a great talk about the last 100 years or so of secular meditation movements in the UK, with emphasis on their relationship to the healthcare system, media, public perception, and popular culture. The most striking feature was the degree to which we repeat the same patterns again and again with apparently little awareness that we keep having basically the same conversation every 20-30 years or so.

    For example, “You Must Relax”, by Dr. Edmond Jacobson, which came out in 1934, attempted to apply scientific biofeedback techniques to secular relaxation techniques and also attempted to distance itself from some of its origins, which almost certainly are at least partially found in The Theosophical Society and the like, considering itself a reform movement that brought rationality and critical thinking to meditation, to build something out of the ashes of the failed world of seances and secret societies, so it believed. They were some of the first neurophenomenologists who attempted to measure physiological responses to internal techniques.

    In 1956, Dr Hans Selye was an endocrinologist who also studied the physiological effects of stress and relaxation, writing “The Stress of Life” book, and helped to make considerations of stress a valid secular scientific field of study.

    Amber Lloyd, with her Relaxation for Living classes and charity in the early 1970’s, similarly conceived of itself as a secular practice, but it was clearly both influenced by yoga and also influenced how yoga came to the West.

    One of my favorite historical tidbits was an article that appeared in the Journal of the Royal College of General Practitioners in 1974 criticizing the work of Jane Madders, another relaxation and meditation promoter, who said that meditation might lead to passivity and not engaging in real-world change when that was what was needed, a critique that is echoed today in McMindfulness critiques.

    Curiously enough, Ron Purser will be doing some book launches here in the UK in the coming weeks, and I will try to make at least one of them, with the list being found here for those interested: https://www.ronpurser.com/new-page-3

    I had lunch with Dr Steven Stanley, the social scientist who will be doing the ethnography of some of these book launch events, and also a personal friend of Ron Purser’s. Dr. Stanley and I will probably collaborate in some way on some research. Dr. Stanley also recommended that I look up Acid Corbinism and Radical Mindfulness, which apparently will likely be up the political alley of some here, x-Buddhistic aspects excepted. They will likely be present at some of these public Ron Purser events, I am told.

    There was another great talk by Dr Kitty Wheater, social and medical anthropologist at Oxford, who also has an interest in epistemology. She presented a long discussion of a hard scientist who attended a MBCT (mindfulness based cognitive therapy) course and was extremely critical of it and its scientific underpinnings, with emphasis on retrenchment, profiteering, and psychiatric expansionism. The largest question she raised and discussed at some length was, “Is criticism without solutions useful?” Her second most useful question was, “Should we be skeptical of other forms of criticism when they agree with us?” In short, she had a meta-critical perspective. She recommended that we:

    1) Treat a critique like a proposition, knowing its origins, position, and trajectory, and
    2) Treat a proposition like a critique, asking what is marginal to what.

    Dr Wheater highlighted soft vs. hard science warfare, issues of how the patriarchy often disparages the social sciences (this conference was about 90% female in both speakers and attendants, as an aside). She also wondered if programs like MBSR medicalize ordinary life in ways that are not helpful. Perhaps similar critiques can be extended to other aspects of meditation and the culture around it. She also highlighted that most don’t like criticism and, in the face of it, just disappear. She also highlighted issues related to the optimal distance from which one could reasonable criticize something, a topic often discussed here. I kept thinking of this SNB site and its work during the conference for obvious reasons. I wondered if conferences like that would be something that SNB members would attend and what they would think of what was discussed there.

    There was a talk by Dr Joanna Cook, who has various university affiliations including Cambridge, who has also been ordained as a nun numerous times in the Mahasi tradition in Thailand, and is now an anthropologist who works with members of the UK Parliament to help provide insights into their explorations of the implications of meditation for the UK’s National Health Service. She gave a talk on the critical nature of objectivity to the degree that one can attain it when doing anthropological science. She mentioned that, during the 2014 debates in Parliament on Mindfulness, that it was thought to be too Right, too Left, too beneficial, too dangerous, too traditional, not traditional enough, too overhyped, too under appreciated, and that clearly one’s view on it was largely determined by one’s biases and political allegiances and appeared to have little to do with the thing itself, whatever that is.

    Speaking of biases, the book The Mindful Elite got mentioned as being useful reading by Dr Stanley.

    It was very interesting to hear some presentations of difficulties the researchers had run into along the way, including Dr. Sarah Shaw, of Oxford, who said that, at a conference, she attempted to discuss the poetry of the early Buddhist nuns as poetry and to compare the style of their poetry to that of the early Buddhist monks, and she found it utterly impossible to get the audience to frame it as such, as there was no way to get the audience to stop talking about social issues related to contemporary nuns and the sexism and oppression that they believed they faced. Curiously enough, Dr Joanna Cook similarly said that the concepts of feminism and oppression that we presume apply exactly as we think they do to nuns in traditional monastic contexts are alien to their way of thinking and didn’t seem to apply as we think they do at all.

    Anyway, such was that Great Feast, though I realize it is not likely to be yours, but I felt satisfied with the weekend.

    Best wishes,

    Daniel

  134. Matthew Drill Avatar
    Matthew Drill

    You’re creating a false dichotomy between only addressing material causes of suffering and only addressing mental causes. There’s no reason why we can do both, examining, in each individual situation, which method will be most efficient and most likely to succeed.

    Also this: “I want to argue that any focus on the cultivation of “positive” states is the highest ideological crime. It is to fail to recognize that bad states can also be cultivated, and that they can be done so entirely unconsciously.”

    Makes no sense. How is cultivating a positive state failing to recognize that bad states can be cultivated? In fact a large portion of Daniel’s book (which it doesn’t sound like you’ve read), is focused on avoiding cultivating bad states.

  135. Chaim Wigder Avatar

    Matthew: This dichotomy, on the contrary, is created by idealism itself. Your failure is in not noticing precisely that what you consider “mental states” are in fact not in existence within some realm called “consciousness,” but are entirely the result of the historical and productive development of individuals within human societies. You are stuck here in what Marx, in criticizing the Young Hegelians in The German Ideology, refers to as “theoretical bubble-blowing.” There are no strictly “mental” causes of suffering, because consciousness is not idealist, but a material phenomenon arising from the material conditions of actual individuals within history. Therefore, you can speak ad infinitum about “consciousness” and “mental states,” but if you do not consider the task to be an operation on the material structures of social and productive organization, then you have not at all begun to address the problem of suffering, and are merely rearranging the molecules that constitute the mist of your own idealist world.

  136. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Chaim: you are still holding onto the same dichotomy and simply ignoring one half of it. You would need to transcend the dichotomy rather than harking back to ideas that have been usefully criticised. See for example Foucault on Marx and contemporary trends in philosophy and sociology toward practise based theory. As long as you hold onto an idea that you could have an accurate theory about the world, then you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Swapping out god for buddha then buddha for materialism is the same game. If you want to change the situation then accepting the diversity of perspectives and dealing with them on their own terms is going to be more effective. Claims to any foundation (in your case material) should be immediately tagged with “idealist”. Even Donald Rumsfeld gets that!

    More important than categories of mental and material (which can be useful categories without being treated as fundamental) Mathew is assuming that these properties should be understood from the perspective of a subjective individual experience. Here Mathew could also gain a lot by understanding Foucault (I would not recommend reading Foucault directly, the secondary texts are much easier). Chaim, before you get offended by Foucault, he is not opposing Marx he is transcending the historical and cultural context that limited Marx’s analysis i.e. he is standing on the shoulders of Marx.

    Chaim, if you really have to have a materialist view then at least look toward “New Materialism” which tries to integrate some of the insights of post-structuralism (which obviously Marx could not, because he was dead by then).

  137. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Chaim, here is Karen Barad on Foucault on Marx : “In Foucault’s account, power is not the familiar conception of an external force that acts on a preexisting subject, but rather an immanent set of force relations that constitutes (but does not fully determine) the subject.” …. “Foucault’s analytic of power links discursive practices to the materiality of the body.”

  138. Matthew Drill Avatar
    Matthew Drill

    Chaim: Then how do you explain people who, through either spiritual practice or psychological development, report drastic reductions in suffering despite their material situation not changing? Your theory that there are no mental causes of suffering seems demonstrably false by those experiences. Unless you consider those spiritual and psychological developments to be part of the material world, in which case the pragmatic dharma practitioners are addressing material causes of suffering.

  139. Chaim Wigder Avatar

    Mark:

    It is really exasperating to try to get you to understand such a basic point as that your desire to “transcend” materialism is just a desire to delude yourself into an idealist fantasy. Instead of trying to understand Marx, you remain obsessed with, and continually refer to, “contemporary trends in philosophy,” as if the fact that Foucault came after Marx means that the former is correct, or that history is not material. It is of course the case that the reactionary responses to Marxism succeeded Marx in linear time. But to think that it is somehow “building” upon Marx’s fundamental discovery to simply ignore it, is just so patently absurd that I am unable to grasp how someone could tout such a naive view.

    In the first place, your entire conception of the history of philosophy as being a linearly progressive process (hence your emphasis on “contemporary” philosophy) is warped. I would recommend looking into Gabriel Rockhill’s critique of this idea of a progression from Marx, to existentialism, to structuralism, then to post-structuralism, etc. The reality is that each of these “trends” (and it is problematic to even refer to them as such) are contingently arisen phenomena of the historical and social nexus in which they emerged, and it is not the case that contemporary philosophy is somehow “building on” or “advancing” past Marx’s thought, or the thought of the philosophical “epochs” which preceded it. I know this would be difficult for you to accept, because you are intent on your attachment to the idealist view of history which Marx precisely critiqued, and so are unable to imagine that all ideas, be they Marx’s or Foucault’s, are historically and materially constituted.

    The very fact that you so wish to “integrate” the insights of what you refer to as post-structuralism into Marx’s thought demonstrates that you are precisely searching for some idealist answer to history, instead of committing to examining the actual material historical structures which we are currently dealing with, a commitment which requires the ability to understand material history, hence to understand Marx. Until you move past you attachment to idealism, you will continue to, along with Matthew, do everything in your power to avoid and derail any discussion of reality in favor of promoting bourgeois and capitalist ideology, which locates material historical processes inside of the individual mind, or in “ideas” themselves.

  140. Mark Avatar
    Mark

    Chaim,

    I do not believe in linear progress. You are demonstrating this for us. I do believe in the importance of historical context, THIS is why you should be looking into contemporary philosophy. It is also one reason why non-buddhism is potentially useful. Now that your fundamental assumptions about how I perceive the situation have been shown to be materially false, maybe you can get over you exasperation and engage in a little bit of reflexivity.

    I used the phrase standing on the shoulders of Marx because Foucault is engaged with Marx. I suspected that everything has to come back to Marx for you, so I thought that might allow you to hear something else. Clear fail.

    There is no desire from me to “integrate” post-structuralism into Marxism. That is not what New Materialism does (and I am not “a New Materialist”). It just might be a way of allowing yourself to see other perspectives. You are stuck in a binary mode of comprehension. That is extremely idealistic, but you can’t see it if you can’t adopt some other perspective. I suggest Foucault and New Materialism not because these are the solution, but because these might be easier paradigm shifts for you, given your starting point.

    Could it be that your idealist attitude toward others is part of the problem? Could it be that your desire to function in an imaginary past with an all knowing father figure is not the revolutionary move you think it is? Could it be that someone else has had useful ideas in the last couple of hundred years?

    Sitting on the sidelines as a cheerleader for a revolution has materially failed. If I mention something like New Materialism why do you think that is a defense of an idealist view? Do you think that New Materialism is defending a Cartesian paradigm? Stop projecting and start reading.

    I suspect this is going to fly right by, but when you write that we need to examine material historical structures, there is a strong smell of an old armchair. It is an obvious insight that what you imagine by “material historical structures” are a critical part of an analysis of the situation, it should also be an obvious fact that the analysis is insufficient. You are not the first person to read Marx. More interesting is understanding the power dynamics by which the bourgeois and capitalist ideology can be changed and to do that by changing it. For that task, in contemporary society, Marx is necessary but insufficient.

  141. Jonathan Avatar
    Jonathan

    Chaim, I’m sure you realize you sound exactly like Tom Pepper, right? Mark has a point when he says, “Could it be that your desire to function in an imaginary past with an all knowing father figure is not the revolutionary move you think it is?” Kill that father.

  142. […] reminded me of an interesting comment that Daniel made about alpha dynamics here:​​​​​​​Imagine if I stated, “At the Dharma Overground, my opinion is […]

  143. Lol Avatar
    Lol

    Whew, you guys really enjoy being angry intellectuals. I’m glad ten years of dharma practice has made me move past this phase. I wish you all luck, enjoy being angry intellectuals and so forth. If you tasted the path to any reasonable extent you wouldn’t be wasting time doing this. Give Daniel another listen on his other interviews, dude is a wonderful practitioner with much helpful information to share that you won’t find from other teachers. I suppose y’all don’t give two shits about practice and tasting liberation though so I don’t mind, continue stewing. 😉

  144. Haha Avatar
    Haha

    Haha that’s hilarious that you moderate comments, now I’m even more certain of what I think about you losers. Bet you only allow comments that you agree with hmm? :*

  145. Wtompepper Avatar

    Yes, it’s clear from your comment how far beyond anger you have moved. Maybe in another ten years you’ll be ready for this site.

  146. George Vockroth Avatar

    Going meta: after three and a half years and 50k + words I think it’s time to bring this discussion to the attention of the Guinness Book of World Records and give dubious props to Chaim Wigder and myself for having initiated it.

  147. Wtompepper Avatar

    George: I don’t think this is a record even on this site.

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